Pilot Emergency Ejects From A Jet And What Followed Changed Everything

In this episode, I sit down with Ken Mellott, an Air Force veteran, former pilot, intelligence officer, author, editor, photographer, and man of faith whose life story stretches from the Air Force Academy to a terrifying aircraft accident, military trauma, PTSD recovery, and intelligent design. Mr. Mellott shares how watching the cadets march at the Air Force Academy as a young boy planted a dream in his heart, inspired by his father’s service, military legacy, and the desire to be part of something bigger than himself.

We discuss the defining moment that changed his life: a major aircraft emergency in a T-38 jet where both engines failed, forcing him to eject and survive an experience that could have ended his life. Mr. Mellott opens up about the investigation that followed, the shame and anger he carried, the fear of flying, and the identity crisis that came from being seen as “the pilot who crashed a jet.” I also share my own perspective from military life and blue-collar operations, especially how harsh institutional blame can become when leaders would rather blame the operator than admit equipment, systems, or culture failed.

This conversation goes deep into military mental health, PTSD, fear of failure, father-son legacy, faith, and the long process of healing. Mr. Mellott explains how his wife’s quiet faith, the example of others who carried hope through suffering, and his own decision to stop living inside the past helped him move forward. We also talk about how identity cannot be built only on rank, career, accomplishments, or other people’s opinions, because true identity has to be rooted in God.

Later in the episode, we explore Mr. Mellott’s writing, including his memoir On Broken Wings and his upcoming intelligent design book series. We discuss irreducible complexity, the human body, the Cambrian explosion, the fine-tuning of the universe, and how science can point people toward the reality of a Creator. I also emphasize that evidence and knowledge can point us toward God, but they should lead us into faith, relationship, and trust rather than becoming the entire foundation by themselves.

Mr. Mellott leaves us with a powerful message: broken does not mean finished. Whether you are a veteran, pilot, author, believer, survivor of trauma, or someone trying to rebuild after failure, this episode is a reminder that fear, shame, and pain do not get the final word. Faith, perseverance, and God-given identity can carry us into a new chapter.

https://www.kenmellott.com/

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple O' Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and one thing that I always talk about is the intersection of science and faith. In fact, one of the quotes I originally had in my book, God Versus the Indomitable Human Spirit, s- coming out soon, hopefully. You know, I talked about how each year there's just more and more signs pointing toward God and creator design. And, some people try to spend every year to find new signs to disprove God, and all we get is more evidence pointing towards God, from different signatures in DNA to light emissions at procreation. There are just so many amazing things that I've been able to study, j- even from how the way we breathe mimics Yahweh, the name of God. So there's amazing signs all around us. So we're here today with a gentleman who writes about that in his book series, who has not just wrote about that, but also shared about his life story and his memoir. A man who has lived quite the life, uh, from both military side and civilian side, so I'm very excited. Mr. Ken Mellott, so great to have you here. And, you know, just looking through your website, there's a lot to unpack, you know, from- ... magazine editing to intelligence- Heh ... to flying airplanes, to all kinds of stuff. So- Well, thank you, Mr. Whiskey ... super excited to get into it. Me too. Yeah, so could you start by just telling us a little bit about yourself? And, uh- Sure ... when it comes to military guests, I'd love to start, of course, the big question that you've been asked your whole life, why did you join, and when did you join? Well, my, uh, f- my father was an Air Force officer, seven years enlisted, and then 27 years as an officer. And I remember that we visited the Air Force Academy when I was 10 years old, and from that moment that I watched those cadets m- march down the terrazzo to their noon meal with the drums playing and the music playing, I knew at that moment that I wanted to follow in my dad's footsteps. So I end up going to the Air Force Academy, the journey to get there, and then I ended up, uh, being a pilot in the Air Force. That's another whole story, which my book is about. And then I end up, uh, being an intelligence officer. Um, got out of the Air Force, uh, down the road and joined the Reserve, and I end up being a stockbroker. I end up later on owning a photography studio, and now I'm an, an editor for Veterans Life magazine with stories of perseverance and faith. And I wrote a memoir called On Broken Wings about my journey to faith and through fear. And then I've written, like you said, I've written a couple of books, uh, on intelligent design. They're not out yet, but they should be out pretty soon. Now, I'm interested in some of us, if we were 10 years old and we saw the cadets marching, we would say, "Never. I would never wanna do that." I know. Some of us would be like, "That looks terrible. I gotta-" I know, I know ... wear a uniform and march funny. So what was going through your thoughts that attracted you to it? Um, my dad was my hero. I, I know some- Mm ... some folks have, you know, father-son stories that aren't as good as mine, but my father was my hero and, um, I just, when I saw those cadets marching and I saw those airplanes, I just had it, a bug in me. Um, my mom bought me a pennant, an Air Force pennant that we j- we don't, nobody uses those anymore, where people would wave those in the stands. Bought me a catalog, and I read every page of that catalog probably three or four, five times, and I remember being on my fa- grandfather's porch three years later and they said, "What do you wanna do, Ken? What do you wanna do in life?" My grandfather said, and, um, everybody in my family was pretty much doctors except my father. And I said, "I wanna go be a pilot." And I also, and as I walked away, I turned back to him and I said, "I also wanna be a stockbroker," 'cause I used to play the stocks and bonds games. And they, they, my, my father and my grandfather pretty much, you know, I think they were thinking, "That's just a kid with dreams to be a race car driver or a fireman." But I end up doing, I ended up doing both of those. So it was just in me from the start. Now, your father, was he one of those military people that was like, "I'd never want this life for you," or was he encouraging of your ultimate decision? He didn't, he didn't push me. The Air, you know, kids that go to the Air Force Academy lots of times are pushed into following in their fa- Right father's footsteps. It wasn't like that for me. Uh, and, and of course I found other things that I like to do also, creative things, but I, at that moment in my life, I just wanted to... You know, I used to, I used to sit up at night. This is before all the videos and the DVDs and Netflix. When I was a kid it was books, and I had a bookshelf filled with books of adventurous men. Call of the Wild, Biggles Flying, the, the, the, the, uh, Revolutionary War heroes, the, the aces of World War II. And I used to stay up at night and just read those books, and I, I just had a young boy's dream of being an adventurous, courageous kid, and I just headed down that path. I totally understand some of that feeling. You know, I, I love going to, we had a couple, uh, at least in Savannah, we had a VA that had a restaurant attached to it, and it was all World War I and II propaganda posters. And I remember, uh, they even had a, a, a book at a, a nearby location of like, uh, the history of World War plane pin-up girls, you know? Oh, yeah. And I was just interested. No, I didn't get it just for the women, right? Yeah. I was just so curious behind how they chose. Like, it, it went into like the history of why these women were chosen for this plane, or why someone chose this design- Right ... or why we painted this. And I, I remember it was just so fascinating to look at that stuff. Or like the other day I was looking at these World War soldiers, their pistols had a clear magazine and handle. Mm-hmm. And there was a picture of their- Mm ... like significant other in it, and looking at the different pictures and stuff like that. So for me, one of my disappointments of when I served was, I guess I had a very wartime enthusiasm. Not that I am like all gung ho for blood killing. Right. Right. 'Cause there, there was people, when we joined the military, you know, everyone always asks us, "Why did you join?" Right. And there was one guy in my division, his answer was, "To kill people," you know? And I, I wasn't one of those guys. But that there was, like you, like you've mentioned, something inspiring about seeing those, like you call them heroes, seeing these people. And I've been even more inspired post military actually, interviewing people from Vietnam and from, you know, the 9/11 era, and all this other stuff, and hearing their stories about what they did. It's just like, wow. You know, for me- Right ... being nuclear operator side, you know- Right ... you felt so bored out of your mind sometimes. But as you- Couple of nukes, right? Right, right. We felt we were just a couple of nukes sitting around. But I've had a lot of guys who were out in the field who said, "Man, what I wouldn't give to be a nuke for a day. To trade out walking through the bayou in, in full uniform and soaked underwear and socks, to sit in the AC and watch some screens make beeping noises," you know? So- Well, don't, don't get me wrong ... we're, we're, the grass is always greener, you know, you know how it is. Right. And don't, don't get me, don't get me wrong. I, I didn't have a dream of going into combat or killing people or... I just had a dream of being a, a courageous guy someday, and military seemed to be that route, and my father was in it. And the, the folks that, the guys that were around him were like a band of brothers, and it just made me feel like I wanted to be part of something bigger. Well, and all the, you know, just talking about the, the propaganda, even if you look at modern day Navy and Air Force and Marine commercials, what is it? It's never a nuclear operator at a computer. No. It's always the pilot, the action shots. Oh, yeah. Right? It's very cinematic. Yeah. Like, it's always- Right, right ... always the pilots. In fact, what was funny was, um, someone in the military was telling me that after, like, Top Gun Maverick and all those movies came out, there was a spike in people joining the Air Force and Navy. Oh, yeah. Heard, heard there was. Just like a huge spike, you know? So it, it, it does speak to what kind of draws our attention and inspiration and- Well, and, and that, that journey that I took had a, had a detour. Mm. It had a detour in 1979 when I was 24 years old. I was in a major aircraft accident, and that was a moment that changed my life. Uh, I had to go through a, a number of things. Almost lost my life in an aircraft accident So tell me about that. That was after you had already graduated school and everything? So I had gone to... I, I had, I went to a prep school to get into the Air F- I didn't get into the Air Force Academy at first, and then I got a, a n- a letter in the mail one day that said, "Hey, you can take this scholarship to this school in the East Co- on the West Coast in Oregon for six months, math and English and physical training every day." And I'm thinking like, "No way, I'm going to Auburn where there's girls, you know, and frat parties and, and easy classes and go to ROTC." But my dream had always gone, been to go to the Air Force Academy, so I gave up my scholarship, my, my roommate, my room, my everything, and I went out to this prep school in Oregon for six months. It was 79 guys, and it was like one of those... You know, it was like one of those B-roll movies where you see a bunch of, bunch of kids in a East Coast preppy school and they're all, you know, teasing each other and sneaking out and wanting to date the local girl and tough com- competition. But I went there for six months and they worked our tails off, and my SATs rose high enough that I got into the Air Force Academy. So I, I finished the Air Force Academy, four years, an amazing experience, and then I went to pilot training in Mississippi. Pilot training was a year-long. Um, flew at the Air Force Academy with prop jobs and then went to Mississippi for the, the jets. Flew a T-37 jet and then a T-38 which they called the, nicknamed the White Rocket, which truly is an amazing aircraft. Reminds me of an X-wing fighter. In fact, our class was called the Jedi Knights, so you know what- ... what year I probably went to pilot training. And I graduated in the top half of my class, and I end up being an instructor pilot in the White Rocket. Oh, wow. A little tiny supersonic jet, and I was teaching Iranian students or Iranian students, however you like to pronounce it. And I was up at about 15, 16,000 feet one day, and next thing I know a warning light came on, and I looked over and the engine, both engines were winding down. It was like somebody hit a kill switch on the engines. So there I am at 15,000 feet, second lieutenant instructor pilot with a second lieutenant Iranian pilot. Never had an emergency before, and boom, both engines are gone. Airplane's dropping like a rock. Uh, I tried to restart it multiple times. We were dropping at over 6,000 feet a minute. So at about 8,000 feet I couldn't think of anything else to do, and I ordered an ejection. So just like those movies, like the Top Gun movie, reached, reached down, pulled the handles, pulled the triggers, and boy, I'll tell you, that's a, that's a journey out of a cockpit. You get shot out like a, like the end of a cannon, um, 18, 20 G-forces. So you basically, um, go unconscious for a few seconds. It felt like I was crushed in the seat like a tin can. And then it felt like I was in a tornado, and then boom, it's quiet. I'm in my parachute and I'm floating down. Uh, I see the student in the distance, and then I see an air- I see an aircraft coming towards me from his distance. And what I found out later, it was actually my aircraft that restarted when we were out. So, uh, it's a little bit of, uh, it's a little bit of infamy that I carry with myself. The guy who got out of a jet that restarted by itself. But the airplane almost hit me in my parachute. Um, streaked down, then I landed in 80, 90-foot pine trees. It was a bad Monday. And, um, that was rough. I had-- That-- The-- I almost lost my life that day multiple times. Um, but what was worse was the afterward, the investigation, the, uh, identity crisis, the, the quiet turn towards PTSD. So that was a pretty rough, that was a pretty rough road For sure. We'll definitely unpack a lot of that, a situation that most of us have never been in and hopefully will never be in. But I wanna focus on something interesting you said, talking about identity. Sure. Yes. Did you feel, did you begin to feel, uh, for lack of better words, an imposter syndrome of, "I'm not a real pilot," or, "I'm a failure of a pilot"? Or what, what do you mean when you say identity? Sure. Exactly. Well, my identity, y- you know, my identity had been forged at the Air Force Academy. I was a c- I was a cadet. I was an officer. I was a pilot. I was a good pilot. I was an instructor pilot. I was one of those her- I was one of those guys on track to be one of those heroes that I read about in my books. And then all of a sudden, I have an aircraft accident. Uh, I have an, I have a really tough investigation. I almost lost my wings. Um, it was a really, really tough time. So my identity had switched from competent, great pilot to the pilot who crashed a jet. Uh, and it was tough because that environment with... You know, you were in the military. That, that environment... And ships, I mean, ships are amazing. You know, everybody's focused. There's no quarter given for failure. And when you're in an environment with almo- not quite Top Gun type of pilots, but almost, flying supersonic jets every day, screaming through the skies, uh, traffic pattern filled with jets, uh, yanking these things around the sky like they're fighter jets, when you go from that environment that has no quarter given on failure and you're viewed as possibly have failed or not met up to the mark that you needed to meet, it's very difficult to deal with, and that's what I call an identity crisis, and I carried it with me for decades. And it wasn't only until later on that I began to figure out that my identity didn't have to be what somebody else defines me. It's, you know, it's what God, God gives me my identity. And whether you make a mistake here or you make a mistake there, it doesn't really matter. It, y- you're, you're a child of God, and you- You don't have to take your identity that somebody puts upon you. But it was difficult to carry that with me for many years. Every time I'd be around other pilots or go to reunions at the Air Force Academy when these guys are fighter pilots, airline captains, CEOs of companies, and here I am the, the guy who crashed a jet. Hmm. So it, it, it was inside of me and, and it affected me in many ways. I still flew in the Air Force. I kept my wings. They told me my career would be over. Uh, I still flew, and I had to get over the fear of flying. I still carried some of that with me, but I did it anyways. You know how that goes when you have... We- you just have a mission, and you have to do it, and it doesn't matter. So I carried the fear of flying with me, and I still flew many, many hours after that. But the worst fear was the fear of failure and the f- and that kind of fear, and I carried that with me a long time because I felt, well, I made... I was identified as possibly of failing something, not restarting the aircraft, um, and I didn't wanna fail. I didn't wanna ha- I, I d- I didn't feel like I had any room for error in the rest of my life. That's what I carried with me And I want to clarify for everyone listening who's not military, at least from my personal experience, and you can verify if this was the case with you, I feel like the military is very blaming of you, right? Yes. They, they don't, they don't say, and this is blue collar industry experiences as well. It's never, "Well, those aircrafts have never failed before. Why would the engines just shut off? Obviously you did something wrong." They're very harsh like that, is very guilty until proven innocent, and I, so- Well, you're, you- Right on the money with that you're exactly right. You're y- Yeah. Oh, you're right on the money with that. So, uh, to give a little more color to the, uh, the aircraft accident and the investigation, I tried to restart the aircraft multiple times. It didn't restart. We didn't have any-- We had a minute left to get out of the aircraft or we would've been dead. So we got out of the aircraft. Uh, one of the engines restarted. Like I said, it looped back and almost hit me in my parachute. So the odds of two engines failing in that aircraft at the same time is really slim. But they did. Uh, and I don't, no one kn- no one to this day knows really why it happened. I've talked to people that were on the accident board and around the accident board, but of course the second lieutenant crashes the jet, one engine restarts, who do they look for? So they tried to, they twisted my testimony. I don't want to get in too much of a whining thing, but they twisted my testimony to make it sound like I might have been a cause of one of the, the other engine going out and that kind of thing. Right. So I had to deal with that, and then I had to go to a flight evaluation board where three officers, three pilots, kind of like, um, like warriors of old sitting up there on the veranda taking testimony from me and my student and other pilots that flew with me to decide whether I was gonna stay in the Air Force, decide whether I was gonna keep my wings or whether I was gonna lose my wings. And I decided to fight for my wings, and part of that was remembering those books as a child. Those, those men that just stood up and tried to- Mm-hmm ... have the courage to fight back. And so I fought for my wings, and I, and I actually kept my wings. Um, so that was amazing. And they, I remember two officers though telling me that my career was over. I probably would not have a career. And they didn't know that, but it was kind of like my grandfather and my father telling me what are you, laughing at me when I told them I wanted to be a stockbroker and a pilot someday, and I did it. These two officers at, after that board told me, "Your career is probably over." And I end up retiring as a colonel at higher rank than those guys did. So, uh, my career wasn't over. I had to, I had to find faith in myself, and I had to find faith in God to lean on and faith in family. So that's, that's kind of what happened to me. No, I believe it 100%. You know, I remember I was working blue collar side at this chemical acid plant, and I'll never forget these words. I, I told my supervisor, I said, "Hey, this valve is stuck." And his response was Well, that valve's never been broken in 30 years, so you're just lazy and don't wanna work and don't wanna do your job. Right. Right. And- Yeah ... this idea that just because something always works, therefore it always is going to, is so toxic in my opinion because there are mechanical failures all the time, you know? Right. But we'd rather blame the operator than the military equipment because of the price tag on it or whatever it is, because of accountability or public image or a lot of higher-ups have, are s- just stuck in this mindset that because it's always worked for their career or during their time serving or because they've never had that incident, that it's not possible, and that's just such a wrong mindset. And I hate when it comes to military review, which I'm sure you feel as well, you have these higher-ups that they show up. They don't know you personally. They weren't involved with your incident. They have no experience at your base even usually. They just show up, and because of their rank, they get to make decisions about your life, life-altering decisions about your career path, and speak about something that they weren't present for, and speak about you like they've known you their whole life. Right. And not, not actually take the time. And then when you're trying to give your testimony, and I, I won't speak on your case, but in some of my cases and what I've experienced with shipmates of mine, uh, in A School, Power School, Prototype, and in the fleet, you know, you're not allowed to really talk or give your testimony. You go to talk- Right ... and they cut you off. You're not allowed to talk back. Right. If you give something logical, they'll just somehow deny it or, I don't know, it just feels like a gaslighting session sometimes. Um- Exactly ... you know, I've seen some, some terrible cases. But, uh, uh, definitely respect for you for standing up for that and fighting for it, and it's a shame. They make it so hard to fight for you to stay in when their whole thing is begging people to stay in, right? Retention is- Right ... down. Recruitment is down. Here's a pilot, year, I mean, hundreds of thousands of dollars of training and hours spent to create this individual that now you just wanna throw him away 'cause you rather say he did something wrong than say, "Okay, we had a mechanical failure with the, you know, vehicle." Right. "Let's investigate it because why would two engines just turn off?" Uh, you know, it's just, it's just a shame to see that in the service and- Well, I had, I, I had to, I carried the anger with me for a long time, anger and frustration. Yeah. Sure. Um, not only the, not only the fears, but the, the anger, the shame of having an accident. Those are burdens that I had to carry, and I carried them alone. Back then, there were no knocks at my door. It was somebody, a, a pastor or, or, uh, a mental health counselor saying, "Hey, how are you doing, Ken?" Mm-hmm. No. I was all alone. I had to go through this whole journey, no friends, no one with me, and it was very difficult, and I carried that anger for a long time, but I still- And I still owed the Air Force three or four years, and I had fought for my wings, so I had to f- I had to fly, and I had to get over it and, and fly. And I remember I carried that with me for a long time, um, but and then I-- But it wasn't until I met my wi- met my now wife, Laurel, that she had a quiet faith about her and me and, and in the Lord, and I just started to realize that I couldn't carry this anger with me the rest of my life. And, you know, I had, I had counted the days to get out of the Air Force after, after that accident. And I ha- I mean, I ha- it was like a prisoner scratching a mark on a wall. I counted every single day, 1,292, 1,291. But I, I just realized one day that I couldn't do that. I couldn't keep living like that in the past. So I remember I had a, I had this big flight evaluation board document, probably six inches thick with all the testimony, and I would keep reading it and going back and saying, "Did I do something wrong? What did this guy say about me? What did he say about me?" Yeah. And then one day, and then just one day, when my wife had a girl over to my apartment who had cystic fibrosis, and she, which is a terrible disease, and she was dying, and she had faith, and she lived life to the fullest, even though she had less than a year or two to live. And my wife was living, my now wife was positive. And I decided they've got something that I don't have right now. And I remember walking out my back door with that document, and I threw it in the dumpster. I threw all my past in the dumpster, literally. And I started, I went into the squadron, and I just started being the most positive guy that I could, volunteering for things. I was already a good pilot. I didn't have a problem flying. I had a problem with people thinking I couldn't fly, but I passed- Hmm ... every check ride in the Air Force. I was upgrading. I was doing everything possible. But I knew in the back of their minds, they kept saying, "That's the guy who crashed a jet. That's the guy who crashed the jet." Right. But I just, I just turned, I just turned and said, "I'm gonna be as positive as I can." And Not, you know, because my wife and because I found a, found faith again in, in God, and I just started to be positive, and things started working out. I, I remember walking in my squadron. You t- I remember walking in my squadron commander's door one time. He said, "Ken, come on in here. I need to talk to you." And he said, "You're flying well. We'd like to upgrade you to be aircraft commander, but your captain's board is coming up, your captain's promotion board, and you've got this letter in your, in your file that says you crashed a jet. You, you might not make captain, Ken. I can't upgrade you to aircraft commander i- if, if you don't make captain, and in fact, you'll have to leave the Air Force." I made captain. Next thing I know, I made major, and I stayed. I just, I just, I continued. I, I threw away that marks on the wall, uh, analogy, and I just started being positive and, and I went off to be an intelligence officer in Berlin, married my wife. Had the most wonderful time in my life and came back to fly and joined the Reserve, and I ended up retiring as a colonel. I k- I kinda was on a path to prove them wrong Right. And when I was in bootcamp, I actually had hand-drawn a calendar in my notebook, and I was crossing out every day. There you go. You know what I'm talking about. That's why you and I- Oh, yeah. And, um, my, my buddies, some of them got, actually, once we got to the fleet or to Nuke school, they got, like, an app on their phone. Now there's, like, a tracker. Like, they have different apps- Oh, God ... that have different- Thank goodness I didn't have that ... Right. They had different milestones and celebrations. Like- Right ... only one year left, congrats. Yeah. There's an alarm on your watch and everything. You know? Yeah. I, I never got that because, I don't know, sometimes it's better to just not look at it and, oh, wow, so much time has passed, than to be on the edge counting every single day. Um, but I, I remember it, it was interesting, uh, because the notebooks, each day I, I, I blocked out the entire box. I wanted it to be, like, very visible, like, boom, that day is over. Right. And I do remember looking back like, "Oh, wow, we, we made it." You know? It felt like the longest time and no time at, at once, which I'm sure you've experienced a lot. You know, probably when you got out of the Air Force you were like, "It's over?" Felt like I was just starting. Right. You know? And at the same time- Right ... you're like, "That was a really long time." Well, it was, it was tough to get out of active duty, and I joined the Reserve. I made colonel in the Reserve. But I remember my w- I remember dealing with all of this, the shame, the fear of flying, the fear of failure, the identity crisis in the Air Force, and I remember that it was just so stressful on me. I'd have to go out and fly, and I'd ha- carry all these feelings with me. And my wife one day, she said, "Ken, how long are you gonna carry, carry this with you? How long are you gonna do something that you don't really wanna do anymore? You're just trying to prove something that you don't need to prove. You don't e- You know, you know?" And so I, I listened to her for the next six months as I stayed in the Air Force, and I got promoted to major, and I hadn't pinned it on. And I decided, "You know, you're right. I need to go live life fully and, and, and, and run my own life." And so I, I turned down my promotion to major. I got out of the Air Force after 12 years, and I joined the Reserve because I wanted to serve and do something, the higher calling. And, uh, that's, that's kind of what happened to me, so I end up staying in the Reserve and, and at the end of my life, end of my career, I end up retiring with 34 years in uniform as an intelligence officer and a colonel, which was exactly what my father retired as, 34 years as a colonel in intelligence. Wow. So the little kid, the, the, the little kid he held up, uh, uh, up, up in his arms at the Air Force Academy as 10 years old to watch the cadets served the exact thing as my father. So I don't, I don't know why that happened. It just happened. And Right. And then when you went to fly for the first time post-incident, were you physically trembling? Was your heart pounding when you- When I had to fly? ... sat down in the seat? Right. Did you have a fear of this thing's gonna crash, or the engine's- Yes ... gonna stall, or I had to- Yes ... eject again? Yes. I did. I, I, s- uh, right after my accident, during the time I had the boards, I knew that I had to get over my fear. So I went out to the local airport where I had gotten a commercial pilot's license the, the year prior. During the pilot training- Mm ... I went out to the local, 'cause I wanted to be an airline pilot or a fighter pilot, so I was getting more flying time. And after my accident, I went out to the local airport and I rented a Cessna 152. Mm. And all by myself, I took that little airplane up in the air, and I did maneuvers and spins and, like I wrote in my book, to take the measure of myself. And I remember flying over the Mississippi Tombigbee River, rocking my wings at a, uh, a fisherman and kind of feeling the joy of flight and getting the confidence back. And that flight- Told me that I could get over my fear. And then the Air Force, because I was still in a accident investigation and they had to keep me current in the airplane, I end up flying five more flights in the T-38. Um, and those were difficult, and it was real difficult when I end up flying big airplanes that didn't have ejection seats, because I knew if something went wrong, I, it was, I was a goner. But I, I, I carried the fear of flying. It... I got over it, and, but I-- you're right. M- many, many flights I would think bad thoughts, not sleep well. I end up having bad dreams and almost nightmares. Even to this day I still have some of those, and they tell m- and I had to go, that's d- way down the road I sought counseling on that because a, a pastor at the gym, I'm talking when I w- I'm 72, but when I was 68, I remember running into a retired pastor, military pastor at the gym, and he said, "How you doing, Ken?" And I said, "Pastor," I said, "You know, I'm doing okay, but I can't figure out why I'm having these bad dreams. I've had them for years and years and years." They seem to be about fear of failure. Um, things like that. So those same feelings that I had after that board, they just, they just get imprinted into your brain, and you wish you could package it up and ship it out and just say, "All right. I don't, I don't have to deal with that. I'm a, I'm a cool macho pilot. I'll just get over that and go back." But it doesn't leave you. And he recommended that I see someone, so I fou- I went through the VA and I found a, a therapist, and I found a group at the University of Colorado, Colorado Springs, Milestones Resilience Group, and I started to understand trauma and the impact it had on my life, and I started interacting with other guys who had PTSD who had come back from the war, you know, really tough situations. And I end up making friends, and now I meet with those people, and it all kind of mitigated. And I, and I wrote my book, The On Broken Wings, my memoir, so that I could kind of pass those thoughts to other people and helping, hope that they could learn something from my journey. And you just mentioned your age, which I want to bring up just to point out the fact that- Oh, thanks. Thanks. But the reason I want to point it out is because you just recently wrote and published your book at your age- Right ... which is, I think- Yes ... really inspirational. So I'd love for you to share about that. Well, on Broke, I've written, I've written three books. The memoir is my first book. It's called On Broken Wings, and it traces the story from that 10-year-old looking over that wall at the Air Force Academy cadets to being a 72-year-old. And it, and it, the... I, I try to touch the, I, I try to be as vulneral- vulnerable as possible and touch the human condition in this book. So yes, there's some action scenes, ejecting out of an airplane, trying to get a big heavy tanker aircraft off the ground in Hawaii and worrying that it wouldn't get off the ground. So I have action scenes in there, but it's not an action book. It's more of a story of perseverance, of father-son relationships, of finding faith in yourself and finding faith in God to get through difficult times. And I hope when someone reads the book, they can take away s- to, I think they can see themselves somewhere in my journey and, and maybe, maybe that would inspire them to keep going. So that's my On Broken Wings. The other books that I've written are about intelligent design, um, and I've written two out of those. There's a series of four that I've written called the Signature Series, and I've written two. First one is called The Blood Signature, which talks about irreducible complexity in our human bodies, and the second book is about the Cambrian explosion, so it's more of a, a archaeological digging up and finding the, you know, fossils. So, um, those are about to be published, but my On Broken Wings is published And then I wanna go back real quick before we dive into the book series, 'cause I'm definitely- Sure ... interested in that. You talked about the faith. You talked about your wife and her friend being an inspiration for you. Right, right. That inspiration, though, how did it come to fruition? Did you start praying, going to church, or did it take kind of a while to actually develop that full relationship with God? A while is the right answer, what you just said. I, I, you know, I'm always amazed when I run into people and they go, "It was this moment that, that I, I turn, I turned to Jesus," you know? But to me, it was a slow... Honestly, it was a, I wish it was like that, but it wasn't. It was a slow burn. It was m- m- meeting people and interacting with people that had the faith, and the light. I could see the light in them, and I just started moving in that direction. I, it, it, years later, I started going to church and got baptized again, and started going to men's groups and praying. But you know, my father, again, he was a, he, you know, he, he taught Bible study. He was a quiet warrior. He'd, he'd ring the bell for Salvation Army. He would do all these things that were so giving and so loving, um, and, and had a faith in God, and he, and he w- and he wasn't selfish. It, it just, my wife and that, it just inspired me. And then I, I ran into, I talk about it in my book, but I, I, I had a couple things happen to me that were remarkable. For, for example, my father died two days after Christmas when he was 67, a brain aneurysm, and two weeks, two, two, a week later we had his funeral, his funeral ceremony or memorial service. And I remember my faith was always quiet, and I got up on stage, 'cause I was the older son, and I did his eulogy, and I talked to the audience and said, uh, "You know, we need to fi- we need, we need to rely on God. We need to trust God that has a plan. We need to rely on him." And it was the first time that I had ever been actually vocal- Mm-hmm ... willing to be vocal about my faith. And the, the, the little thing that happened to me after that really s- uh, is, is kind of an interesting story. Two weeks later, my son had a Pinewood Derby race scheduled for Boy Scouts, and he wanted to build a car that was in honor of, of his grandfather. Wow. So we painted the car to look like, we painted the car to look like the jet I flew, painted it blue, put stickers on it, and he wrote "GP" on the back for Grandpop. And w- he had never done well in these races, and I can't even hardly use a screwdriver. But together we built this little car in honor of his grandfather. And out of 100 cars that night, the car that took the finish line was the little car with the GP on the top. And I thought, and I stood there in the gym, 'cause I had mentioned the Pi- I mentioned the Pinewood Derby right after I had did, done my testimony about God and faith at, at his funeral service, and I kept thinking, "Wow, two weeks ago I got up and was vocal in my faith, and here we are at the finish line and my son's winning this trophy." And I wrote a chapter and I called it When God Winked, and I don't know if God winked or had a say in that little car that went down that path. Right. But I can tell you, tear, tears were running down my eyes that night, 'cause I felt something was greater than just a lucky car. Mm. So- I lost the Pinewood Derby when I competed. Yeah, I- ... I don't know. I put too many washers in the front or the back or whatever. You know, we would- Yeah ... glue washers and stuff to them, but, um- Right ... no, I do think that's- But there's little, there's little mir- there's little miracles like that. You know, you have to- Yeah ... you have to believe in miracles and have faith to see miracles, and for me that was a miracle. A- and it just ha- it, it just, that's another one of those things that made me realize. So I just have had, been a slow journey and that's, that's for me Yeah, I know one of the things we talk about all the time is people will say, "Where are the miracles of, of old time?" And, you know, there are so many- Amen medical miracles every single day. We just don't track them the way that we track the miracles of the Old Testament and New Testament, you know, because there's so much going on in the world. And because mainstream media focuses so much on the bad and the negative and the evil in the world, we often miss out on all these small blessings. And I highly encourage everyone, you know, I, uh, was working on a book originally many years ago called The Small Blessings That Add Up, or something like that, pending title. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Uh, but it was focused on that stuff, you know? On every day there's very small blessings in our life that we take for granted, but when we think about everything that had to line up to cause in the form exactly as they did, you realize, like, "Hey, God is looking out for you in even the smallest ways." And, and that's why I love- Yeah ... you know, the historical account of Esther is one of those historical accounts in that Bible that speaks of a time where even when we don't mention God, we don't talk about God, and we're not even thinking about God necessarily, that He is working behind the scenes. It's the only account in the whole Bible where God is not mentioned directly, and still everything lines up perfectly for the salvation of Esther and her people. And so I think that's- Right ... so important. And then one thing you mentioned, looking at the people in your life who were an inspiration to you. I think about, I don't have the exact quote, I'm gonna paraphrase it, but basically, you know, Christ is saying or, or, or Paul, someone is saying, "Live as a disciple of Christ accordingly, so much so that people will come to you and say, 'What is this reason for hope that you have?'" Right. "Why are you so-" Right ... "like, positive and hopeful?" Right. And then you can answer and say, "It is because of Christ." And I think all the time about how inspirational we can be- Whether we're meaning to mentor or not, that's the thing. People are always watching our actions, and we need to remember we represent our faith group and God just as much as we represent ourselves. And I, I remember one of the, uh, women in my college classes shared about her mother was at a, like, a battered women's shelter in, like, South America. But she was so hopeful that all the other battered women who were depressed and despaired were like, "Why do you have this hope?" And she pulls out a Bible, and she preached to them and started a Bible group at the battered women's shelter- Mm for all these women who were in despair because they were drawn to her hope and faith in Jesus Christ. And when I hosted the Warriors of Hope book launch in Arizona, I got to host an emcee and share not only about, you know, my life, but many women who were victims of sexual assault- Right ... raping, domestic violence. Right. And we all prayed together, and they all, almost all of them, shared their faith in Christ and how he was blessing them and healing them and using their story to help others. And for me- Right ... that was so inspirational. These were women who were raped in kindergarten, who had been- Yeah ... beaten and forced- It's terrible to clean up their own blood. To see these women who were treated so despicably by some of the most evil men in the world proclaim hope and faith and recovery in Christ, it was so inspiring to me. And so I think- Yeah ... we all need to remember that even our faintest, you know, glimmer of hope could be the brightest light in someone's deepest darkness. You know? Well, I, I hear Max- We are serving as a beacon ... you know, Max Lucado talks about every biography of a bold disciple starts with a chapter of honest terror, and he talks about- Mm ... the, the fear of, the fear of death, the fear of failure, the fear of not living up to who you were meant to be, identity, and the fear of not knowing God. So when we suffer, you know, that's the way I looked at my life. I suffered, but, uh, now I have a clearer view of God. So I wouldn't wish those things had happened to me, but if they hadn't happened to me, I might not ha- I might not be the disciple that I try to be now. And my book is my effort to try to, try to do that. Right. And one thing I want to address, m- just to track the timeline, your father's passing, was he around during your incident? And if so, what did he kind of respond to it with? Uh, well, my father was a senior officer, uh, and he had, he was really busy at the time, and I w- For me, I would thought, "What, what does my dad think of me? Is he embarrassed by me that I crashed this jet?" Mm. That he was proud of having a son that went to the Air Force Academy. Was, was he embarrassed by me? How could I live up to my father? I don't know what he was actually thinking. I mean, he, he, he worried about me. He sent a lawyer to help me during, during my flight evaluation board. He- That's nice ... talked to me on the phone, but he, he didn't-- nobody visited me. My, my father was really, really busy at the time, and he actually couldn't because of his assignment. But, um, it was more me worrying about what he thought of me. But that, that's kind of where that was at. Okay. Yeah, I was curious because I was reflecting on it. Because of his experience and everything, uh, if he was either more empathetic or more harsh, you know? 'Cause I, I definitely see it going both ways. My, my father, my father was not harsh. I think he was a quiet empathetic. I wish I had had more empathy for that. Mm. But I carried most of this myself for many, many years until I, u-until later. So I just dealt with it. It, it's kind of, you know, the military, you quote, "Suck it up." You're, you're not really supposed to be weak in any fashion. Crash a jet, almost lose your life, airplane almost hits you in the air, you, you, you crash into trees, you, you go through all this, but suck it up. It's just a Tuesday. It's just a Tuesday. Get on with it. Okay. Go fly. You're, you're, but you're still a pilot. Go fly. So you do. You just do it the best that you can. But certain- certainly I, you know, I wondered what people thought about me, what kind of, what kind of a son did he think he had? But that's why he, he died when I was a lieutenant colonel, and so I always, I always wished that the, uh, the, the colonel that pinned on my second lieutenant bars could have pinned on my colonel bars. So, but he was gone. Mm. So and I, I kind of wonder what he'd, what he would've thought. Right. And, you know, we say all the time in the Navy, I'm sure y'all say something similar, which is also take a hit and keep going. You know, we say that- That's it ... all the time as well. So. That's it. Well, there's a lot. You know, um, David Goggins in, I think he wrote a book called Don't Hurt, uh, Don't Hurt Me or something like that, where he talks about in the military you, well, in, in all phases of life, you can build up calluses of experience- Mm that allow you to get through the next experience. And for example, you, you went to naval boot camp. That tough experience allowed you to get through something else that was tougher after that. For me, it was the Air Force Academy, mostly. Four years of the grind of the Air Force Academy gave me this feeling that I could persevere no matter what. And then reading the, uh, remembering those books of, that I read as a child, those courageous men, seeing my father as, as somebody that I admired, those three things got me through to the point where, um, where I got to. And that's so important what you just mentioned, the remembering the why. Yeah. If your passion and your purpose is not strong enough, failure will overcome you. But if your why for what you're doing is deeply rooted in your origins, you know, you can't overcome that. Yeah. But- And I, I'm a huge David Goggins fan. Oh, there you go. Y'all can check out my Instagram, where I have a bunch of photo shoots and videos of David Goggins content. Uh- Oh, nice. Yeah. I've got a, I've, I've, you know, have a couple videos of me running with a log and- Well- yelling David Goggins stuff, so ... you know, I, when I, when I was 62 years old, I started running Spartan races, and I- Wow ... I end up being the, I end up being the, uh, top guy over age 60 in the whole country. Wow. And I ran those races, yeah, I ran those races in my book. I talked about it. I ran those races because I was still trying to prove to myself the, uh, the metaphor that I could get through, get over any obstacle in life. So you go through an obstacle, well, why not run obstacle course races as a metaphor? And so that's what I did. When I was 62 years old, I was running races all over the country, trying to still prove to myself. But, you know, the, uh, when you talked about identity before, it's, what we have to be careful of is not trying to ma- not trying to have other people put a label on us. Our, our identity, I mean, y- you know, I'm not that vocal about faith, but y- identity isn't defined by what rank you make, what job you have. The only identity that really matters is are, are we, do, do we accept that we're a child of God, that we're, we're somebody special no matter what happens to us? And, and taking that idea and not worrying about other people's identity. So that's something I think about a lot, too. And that's gotten me to the point now where I'm comfortable talking about this, and I'm comfortable talk- being around other pilots and, and folks like that because I don't worry about what they think. And then going to the, you mentioned intelligence officer. Right. Why the transition? Was it you were too old to fly or you wanted a career shift? Oh, sure. Why the change? Well- There were several reasons. One, I didn't wanna stay f- uh, why would I wanna keep flying when I had a fear of flying deep-rooted inside of me? Mm. And I like to do different... I like to d- I've looked at, I've looked at your bio. You do a million things. I wanted to do other things. I would find myself in the cockpit at 35,000 feet, sit, and I'd look, turn over to the other pilot, and he'd be living life at large, and I'd be saying to myself, "I wanna do different things in life. I don't wanna just do this. I don't wanna just drone along at 35,000 feet." So I end up, uh, my father was intelligence officer, so there you go. Uh, like, like a son following his father who's a fireman, and he becomes a fireman. I, my father was intelligence officer, so I applied to be an intelligence officer, and I wanted to do something different. So I, and I end up getting the most amazing assignment in the world. I end up going to Berlin. That's when the Berlin Wall was up. Oh, wow. So I was intelligence office- I was an intelligence officer in Berlin. Um, I found my... It was the greatest assignment I ever had. I end up being in charge of 120 super smart enlisted guys that, that were just amazing, and the assignment was, uh, ooh, it was legendary. It was just being behind the Berlin Wall as an intelligence officer was amazing, and I, like my father, I, I think I was, I think I was best not as an operator of machinery like an airplane, but as a leader of people, and I, and I loved it. And then they end up, uh, sending me back to flying 'cause I, you, you, they, like you said, they invested a lot of money in me, so they sent me back to flying, and that's when I realized I'm just gonna get, get stuck in this job the rest of my life as a pilot dealing with these issues. It's time to get out. And so I end up, I end up getting out, joining the Reserve, and I end up being a stockbroker, like I told my grandfather at 13 years old. So that's what I did. Right, which I think is the craziest part. You became everything you declared, you know, even going to the- I- ... stockbroker route ... I became every- Yeah, I guess when people tell me I can't do something, like those two officers that told me my career was over or my grandfather who laughed, chuckled at me, um, 'cause he had lived through the Great Depression, I don't like when people tell me I can't do something, so I try to do it. Yeah, and it's so frustrating when it's your family specifically. I remember, uh, you know, so I've performed stand-up comedy a few times. Hopefully I'll be performing twice here in Tokyo. Uh- Nice ... which is amazing to perform internationally. Yeah, I'll be performing- Is that where you are now? ... half in Japanese too, so. Are you in Tokyo? I am near Tokyo right now, yes. I'm in Japan. That's ama- that's amazing. And I- I'll be performing in another language that I don't know, you know, so I'm trying to memorize different stuff. Uh, but I remember telling my grandparents at some point that, uh, you know, I had gone into stand-up comedy, and I remember them laughing and them saying, "You? Funny?" Right. And it really hit me because we always paint grandparents as, like, the most supportive role. You know, your grandparents are usually the ones where if your parents say no, they say yes. Right. Right? Right. And I remember how agitated that made me. It was like, you know, but I do perform. You know, I got a standing ovation at my last performance, and my grandparents- That's awesome over here. But, you know, my, my grandparents too, I only see them maybe once or twice a year every few years. So I think they also just have such a skewed perception of me to begin with. Like, they, like they, they have a fictional version of me painted in their head with some real factors tied in from experiences and, you know, family stories. But yeah, I just remember that- I wouldn't say inspired me, but it was in the back of my head like, my grandma thinks I can't do this? Yeah. Yep. What does she know? Come on, Grandma, you were supposed to, you were supposed to bake me a cake and say, "Let's celebrate." You know, you weren't supposed to discourage me. Well, exactly. Well, then I did that for three years, and I found that m- I found that the income going up and down, and I had brand-new children, so it was a pretty stressful life, just kinda like the military. And I did, I decided to go back into the government, and I became an intelligence officer in, in counter-drug work and- Mm eventually in space and missile work. And then I end up, then I end up, uh, wanting to leave that, uh, and I end up, my f- I was gonna go back into finance, and I had a job lined up for a Monday. And on the weekend my buddy said, "Hey." My nickname was Mello. And he goes, "Hey, Mello." He goes, "Why don't you become a photographer? You like photography." And I said, "What? I'm not gonna make a living as a photographer. Are you crazy?" And so I thought about it on the weekend, talked to my wife, and on Monday I turned down this finance job and I opened up a photography studio, and I end up, I end up photographing a gazillion people for 10 years. And so I found that You know what? People think that they can do one thing in life, they can actually do a million things in life. So that's what I, I never wanted to be that guy that sat at 36,000. In fact, I'm glad I end up not being an airline pilot like I wanted to, 'cause I, I admire airline pilots. What an amazing job, great income, traveling around, highly respected. But to, but to walk through airports and fly at 36,000 feet every day was not me. Yeah. I, I was... I had other, I had other interests, finance, create creation. So I became a photographer for 10 years, learned it from scratch. Next thing you know, I had this amazing photography studio with employees, and we were photographing everything. And then I end up, uh, then I end up in writing. I end up wri- writing for the local paper. I end up writing books. I end up being an editor for a magazine. So like I said, life d- life doesn't end when you... You're not identified by one job either. Right. Yeah. I, I, you know, am doing something different every day. I know you know that. Uh, yeah. And that's, that's one of the things when I look at a lot of the interviews I've done with military members, a lot of them left the service to pursue so much more. Not that you can't pursue stuff while in the service, but because of the freedom of time and everything that- Right can come with leaving the service. And all of this to say how much you've done. I believe this is an announcement that you will be doing stand-up comedy in the near future now, correct? Oh my God. I don't think so. You might as well. Mike, I'm like, I don't know... I, I don't know any jokes. I'd have to go on the, uh, sarcasm side. Oh, okay. Yeah, I was gonna say, well, if you're, if you're a dad, you should have at least one dad joke. I don't have any jokes. I can make people laugh. But I d- I laugh because I tease them a little bit, so that's how I get- Mm ... get it done, but I don't tell jokes. No, I'll leave that up to you. What I find is most people are storytellers, and- I am a storyteller the thing with the stage of stand-up comedy is you have limited time for storytelling. However, that's why you'll see the, the best comedians who have 15 or 30 minutes, they can tell a story, and they can circle back with their jokes. When you're doing- Right ... one minute, three minutes, five minutes, there's no storytelling really. You know, you gotta- No ... get it out there. Um- Yeah ... yeah, so. But I don't know. We'll see. I'm gonna, I'm gonna circle back in a year from now and see if you- Check on me, yeah? ... can perform it. Yeah, I'm gonna see. But, uh, as far as photography, what really- Yeah ... captivated your attention with it? Why did you get so interested in it? Um, I started like, like most dads and moms, I started photographing my kids' sports. And of course, you get out there and you take the pictures and you give the pictures to the families and everybody gets excited and you think you're a pretty good photographer. And then, I don't know, I've always been-- I've always tried to be the best at whatever I could do. So I end up taking a course with a big company about how to shoot sports photography, and then I just went for it. I ended up buying the gear, the lighting. I'd go into gyms, high school gyms, the, uh, clamp lights up to the ceiling, bounce lights all over the place, and I'd make screwed up shots, and next thing I know, people were buying my photographs. Next thing I know, the newspaper said, "Hey, you want to shoot for us?" And I said, "Sure." Next thing you know, the Air Force Academy said, "Hey, you want to go down on the football field? Do you want to photograph our sports?" And I was really good at sports photography But I really realized that I like to take pictures of people because I like to capture their emotion. I like to capture the, the humanness of them, not the action. Mm-hmm. So after photographing a gazillion sports, I mean, any sport that you can imagine I probably photographed, I ended up, uh, opening up a studio, and I had no clue how to ph- photograph people. Uh, I knew how to photograph somebody going over a high jump bar, but I had no idea, uh, how to photograph s- people. So I just practiced, and I end up buying lights, and I end up taking courses, and I end up buying gear and outfitted my studio. And I ended up photographing 600 or 700 high school seniors, 30 or 40 weddings. Photog- magazines hired me to shoot for some of them. So that's what I did. I did that for 10 years, and I end up working... But, but then I was in my mid-60s, and I end up getting, working so many hours I decided that it was crazy and I needed to back off, need to spend some time with my wife. So I ended up selling the studio, and, uh, here I, here I am. I turn- I switched to writing. Right. That's your retirement plan. Yeah, it's, uh, it's good to stay busy, though, and hopefully you've taken more pictures of your wife than anyone. You know, I'd hate for you to take- Yeah. ... all these pictures all day and have none of your wife. I mean, that's how you get in trouble. Well, I, I remember, I remember the first time, I remember the first time I got the lights out in the living room and tried to photograph, and I remember looking at my camera going, "Man, that's ugly." And she, she was all mad at me, 'cause I, "No, not you. Not you, hon." Right. It's like my, my, my photography is ugly. Poor choice of words, yeah, yeah. Poor choice of words, yeah. I, I totally get that. Yeah, and- Yes ... you know, as we approach the runway here, no pun i- well, pun completely intended, you know- The end of the runway I wanna, as we approach the runway, you know, as we go to land this plane, I wanna talk about the fictional book series you have. Oh, okay. Sure. Fictional, but embodied into it much reality, right? Right. We n- we have had interviews on this podcast before about the power of embodying reality into fiction to deliver a message. Uh, we've had- Yes ... a couple, uh, specifically a lot of military authors like to do that- Right ... especially. And- Yes ... you know, what got you into intelligent design? I, I know on my end- Sure ... just scrolling through social media or watching sermons, I've come across some amazing facts and researched them further. What kinda drew you to it? I think what drew me to it is, um, is just looking at the world. And, and the Bible talks about ins- and I'm not a very good passage, uh, repeater, but the Bible talks about you can just-- if you just look, you can see. And you can s- see... And, and when I-- and I would look at the human body or the systems in our bodies or how we're so clearly perfectly de- de- designed, distance from the sun, distance from the moon, the size of the Earth- Right the human body, w- all the little systems on systems that have to be run perfectly, that all had to be put together at the same time. I just said, "You know, one of my callings, I think, is to, is to write books that will make people ask those questions." Hopefully, I run into some 24-year-old or somebody that says, "You know, I've been taught this in college, but I just read this book that my dad bought for me, and it makes me wonder if I've got the story right." So I think that You know, faith can lead, lead, you know, you can believe in the Lord and then just see design. But if you see design, that might lead you to the Lord. So that's why I decided to write these books. And the first one is called "The Blood Signature," and it's, uh, it's about irreducible complexity, how all the parts of parts of our bodies have to be all designed at the same time, uh, or, or they, or they, or you, it'll, they, you won't survive. I mean, everything from reproduction systems to our eyesight to our, the, our bone repair to our blood, our blood clotting, um, that there's so many proteins and things that have to work exactly right in the exact sequence, um, or it's a failure. So I decided to write a book about that, and so I wrote a fictional book. Um, you know, good guys, bad guys, the scientists that are, um... And I also, I also know that whenever I talked about it to some people, sometimes they're very skeptical about it. They, they go, "No, there's, it's evolution. We were..." You know, that, I mean, that's what you're taught in school. But I, I, I just, I just think it's something different. I think God, God had this plan for us, and, and He made us. And I decided to write a series of four books. "The Blood Signature" is the first one. It deals with irreducible complexity, the mathematics behind the odds of things happening in our bodies precisely, which is infinitesimal. And the second book is called "The Cambrian Explosion," the, uh, the explosion of fossils with no precursor fossils, um, to show that there was evolution. I mean, all of a sudden, there were these areas in Canada and China and other places where, boom, there's just an explosion of life forms. And so that story is about, about that. And then the next one's gonna be about, uh, the constants in the universe, like the distances and things like that. Mm. The force of gravity has to be... All these things have to be perfectly aligned. Yeah. And then the fourth one is about the structure of the cell and the, the origin of life. So I've written two of them. The first one, "The Blood Signature," will be out pretty soon. All my books, because I was an intelligence officer, all my books, unfortunately, have to go through the government for approval, even though I don't have anything secret in there or I'd be in trouble. Right. So it took them six and a, took them six and a half months to approve my memoir, and I should get back my first blood signature in the next couple weeks, and that'll be out too. I've watched a lot of good sermons on some of those topics. The number one specifically, the foundational numbers of the universe and how if the earth was .001 degrees- Yes this way or the distance that, uh, you know, just looking at those numbers mathematically, logically, and scientifically- Yes ... it should be enough to convince you. And then there's actually more science disproving evolution than in support of it, and I've spent a lot of- I agree ... time watching sermons that disprove it, or a lot of- I agree theories around evolution have never been observed. They've only been theorized- I agree ... uh, which is a thing. Yes. I've watched some good sermons on, if you wanna look up, you know, God's signature in Hebrew and- I have the book ... DNA is a great one. You got it. And then, uh, I ... Now there's a couple similar stories of conversions where, like I, I believe it was a Chinese doctor who converted to Christianity because of the structure of the eye. Right. Studying the human eye and the complexities- Right ... of it and how everything lines up. You know, like you talked about the complexities. In fact, on Refuge Freedom Stories, which is a ministry podcast run by Johnny T., you know, he interviewed a guy, I don't remember who, but someone had to cut open a human body for medical school- Yeah for practice. Yeah. And when they cut open a human body and saw the inner complexity of it, they converted. They said, "This has to be intelligent design. Look at this." So there's a lot- So I always- ... of scientific evidence out there ... I, I, I always knew, I always knew there was a God Because of that. Because of the s- me just observing the universe. I said there's just no way. There's no way this happened by random, uh, random selection, natural selection. And so I had the, I had that thought behind me before I even found more faith in it. Um, and, and I just ... My book is at the in- I call it at the intersection of science and faith in a thriller type of element so that it's an interesting story. I don't try to beat people over the head with the, the faith aspect. I don't try to beat it, but I try to, so I try to bring up both sides, but I definitely gear towards leaving the reader with, "Boy, I, I think he's right." That's what, that's what I'm trying to do. And what I'll emphasize, like, because, you know, I had done long ago, and it's gone now, I'm gonna redo a better version of it, but a sermon on Pascal's wager, which is like a mathematical- Mm calculation. Mm. Kind of if, if you're a gambler, uh, what are the odds and what, what is the risk and the reward when looking at belief and non-belief and internal, eternal, and all that stuff. You can have all the scientific and mathematical- Yes ... proof for God and know of God and still not know God. And what I mean by that is- Yeah proof and knowledge does not equivalate to faith. And so I highly- Yes ... encourage you, if this is a good stepping stone or foundation towards belief and understanding the Bible and relationship with God, that's great, but it cannot be your sole structure of faith. Yes. And so I wa- I wanna put that- Yeah ... out there for everyone. These should be reaffirming factors. Yeah. These should be- That's the right word for it ... things that reaffirm your faith. And so- Yeah ... you know, Mr. Miller, as we get, you know, as we land on the runway- Landing now, huh? Hopefully we don't lose any- Eject ... luggage or anything. Yeah, well, that too. Hopefully we don't do that. Well, what would be the main message you wanna leave with us? Well, I would say that, I'd say broken doesn't mean that you're finished. Mm. It just means you need to find faith in yourself, you need to find the love that will carry you through, and you need to find faith in God to, to, to be there with you. So bro- broken doesn't mean finished. Amen to that, 100%. We've gone over a good amount of stuff. You know, like you said, you've lived quite the life, and, you know- ... we'll definitely have you back on once all your books are out, pending- Okay, cool ... government review process. And I, I know how that is, you know. Yeah. I, I've had a couple military authors on the show who, because of their clearance level or some of them were writing about, you know, old missions, and it's been 10 or 20 years. Yeah. Can we talk about it? So I understand that. Right. But, um, you know, you do have your memoir out, which is- Yeah ... on its own super important. We encourage everyone to check that out. We'll have your website- Thank you ... in the description below. And, you know- Thank you ... now you can add officially, uh, podcasting to your many things that you do as well. So super excited- I'll, I'll do that, Mr. Whiskey ... to host you. Yeah, so. Thank you so much for inviting me. Yes, sir. Take care, and we'll see you again. God bless.