Flawed Traditional Systems: Analyzing The 12-Step Limitations & Better Recovery Options

Today, I sit down with Jimmie Applegate to talk about addiction recovery from an angle most people avoid: what “traditional” recovery often fails to address. Mr. Applegate owns and operates addiction recovery centers in a remote, rural part of Northeastern Arizona, where the environment is intentionally structured to reduce triggers and support long-term change through outdoor and wilderness-based therapeutic work.

Mr. Applegate shares his personal story of overcoming a decades-long pornography and sex addiction, and how repeated attempts through the same single-path solutions led to relapse, shame, and confusion—especially when the message was that one program should work for everyone. We break down how that “one doorway” approach can miss what’s actually driving the behavior under the surface.

From there, we press into what a more effective recovery model looks like: individualized assessments, customized treatment planning, and getting serious about root causes. Mr. Applegate explains why trauma screening matters, why some people need targeted trauma work, and how brain-based recovery strategies can help address things like compulsive loops, brain fog, and emotional dysregulation that keep people stuck.

We also talk about recovery industry realities—why “30 days” became a standard, why it often isn’t enough, and what it looks like to support someone until they’re truly stable instead of simply “graduated.” If you or someone you love has tried the same recovery path repeatedly with no lasting results, this episode lays out a clearer framework: better assessments, more modalities, and a recovery plan that actually fits the person.

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode, a couple of nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today we're going to be looking at addiction recovery. We have gone over a lot of non-traditional methods of recovery on this show, and today we're gonna look at the traditional ones, but not from the point of what they can do, but what they fail to do.

Now, obviously addiction is something different for everyone, and so is the recovery, but we're gonna talk about some main things from personal experience. My guest here that he noticed during his time of addiction and addiction recovery that he feels is very important to share. And I am honored to have the ability to host this conversation to hopefully make an impact.

So if this resonates with you and your addiction recovery journey, or you are knowing someone who's recovering, which most of us nowadays do know someone who is struggling. Please share this episode if traditional methods have not worked for them. Without further ado, Mr. Jimmy Applegate, so great to have you here, and could you please tell us a little bit about yourself?

You bet. Thanks Mr. Whiskey for having me. I really appreciate the time today. So, so yeah, Jimmy Applegate, I own and operate Addiction Recovery Centers here in Northeastern Arizona. It's small, small town. The, our primary facility is in a town of about 250 people. I could, I could probably zoom that camera out to the wheel out, out the window there and, and it's full of trees.

So we're really in a very rural area, out in the wilderness, very much intentional. There's no corner store or a convenience store down the street where you can get some shooters. There's, there's no girlfriend on the corner. Your, your dealer doesn't live around the, around the block. You know what I mean?

So we're remote quite intentionally, and we do a lot of remote work out outdoor recreational therapy. And so, but I got into the industry. I, I'll even go backwards further. Grew up in a small town in upstate New York. Grew up mostly dairy farms, working on dairy farms, and I think that's really where I learned to work.

But right after high school, immediately after joined the military into the Air Force and did several years there. Let me think. Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait, if you can remember that far back. That's when I got outta the military back then, and I was in the nineties. And so, and then from me, I really just started entrepreneurial work, did from business to business and started to do a couple things of different types financial background financial planning background, and then got into construction and did, did a couple different things.

And then somewhere in there the internet was born. Lo and behold, you could click on screens on the internet and see pretty pictures of naked ladies. And that speaks to my past. But moving forward from that, it was, it was something that attracted me and I really got involved in viewing pornography and literally, I, I used the term state still to this day, 30 years of active addiction and pornography and sex until you know, worked my way through that.

With multiple times and, and again, this story speaks to why I do what I do today because as I went through that journey, I was encouraged on a regular basis to always do this one thing. Go through this one door, Jimmy, and that's where you're gonna. See success and I would do it. Okay, that's what I gotta do.

That's what they told me to do. Here's where I go. And I got sober and then I didn't get sober. And then, Hey, go through this one door, do it again. And if I was the psychologist, the psychiatrist, the the church leader, the the friend, the counselor, every single one of them, the police officer, I mean, they all kind of steered me in that one PLA path.

And, it wasn't until I had to take control of my own recovery and say, you know, wow, Jimmy, you suck at this. You keep fucking it up. And what are you doing wrong? You know, and had to start an investigation of my own and go out there and find other modalities and methods that would help Jimmy. And so, finally got into recovery.

Been in recovery now, this is six years of, of complete sobriety, I say. And and from there, you know, started volunteering at a recovery center and enjoyed it. Absolutely loved to teach and talk. Absolutely loved to share. Absolutely loved to go out in the wilderness for the guys in the program that I was volunteering at.

And, and help them along. And, and then around that time, my son, our youngest son graduated, my wife and I became empty nesters and we kind of looked at each other and said, well, geez, maybe it's time. I don't have any more wrestling matches to go to and, and all the plays are done, right. Maybe it's time to start another business.

And it just made sense to go into behavioral health and start a recovery center. And as I got engaged in the recovery world and hired people, employed people from within the industry and started seeing the way they did the things that they did and asked, is there a reason? And you know, it's standard answer.

This is the way we've always done it, kind of thing. And it wasn't acceptable. We're doing things wrong. We're doing things backwards. We're doing things not successful. An easy look at the success rates in the United States of America that say 12 months post sobriety, 30 to 40% people. Are sober, which means what?

The failure rate is 60 to 70% failure rate, right? We're obviously screwing something up. What the hell started journaling about it? Started writing, and that turned into really, it turned into me being really pissed off about it and, and it turned into a book so that I could just say, look, this is broken.

We, we gotta do some things differently, folks. And so, yeah, that's what leads me to talking to you today. So thanks for having me, Mr. Whiskey. Of course. And one of the points you made there during your brief overview of your life is something that's been said before on the show that I always emphasize, which is the timeline of your addiction.

Mm-hmm 30 years, 30 plus years. We've had people on the show a couple people, you know, multiple decades of addiction who recovered. Some of them didn't recover until they were in their seventies, some 40. Some of them had multiple marriages, different lives. Some of them went in and outta prison. That all ties into one message, which is it's never too late, you know, and a lot of us give up on people who have relapsed time.

And again, you know, I have seen people who relapse in the double digits. You know, getting close to a hundred times of relapsing each session of sobriety. Sometimes a few weeks, sometimes a few years. But relapse after relapse and can get frustrating. And a lot of people give up hope, but it's really important that we keep that hope.

We know that it's never too late because. You are walking proof that people can't overcome that, and I want to clarify for everyone listening myself included, your addiction that that span, that 30 years, is that strictly pornographic or is that in addition to substance abuse? N no substance abuse.

Honestly, substances were not a big challenge for, for Jimmy when I was young you know, military time, you got, you gotta come, you got about one option. You can go out there and drink or you can stay in your bunk. You know, I, I went out and drank, right? We drank a lot, but it was never the thing that continued to drag me.

Matter of fact, I stopped drinking o other than just, you know, I'd have a beer if we went out and let's go get some wings and you're gonna have a beer with wings. 'cause that's, you're supposed to, it goes together, right? But I pretty much stopped drinking in my twenties just 'cause it was boring to me.

I'd had no, it didn't pull, it didn't hold me. It didn't pull me. You know what I mean? Right. And so, and, and any other substances that I've, that I've tried really never grabbed a hold of me like like pornography did. So, so then we have to move into what most people don't know compared to aa, compared to rehab, compared to the structure for.

Substance abuse, addiction. What does it look like for pornography? You talked about people steering you in the same direction. What was that direction of sobriety from pornographic addiction? Was it certain church groups? Was it actual medical facilities? What did it look like? So for me it started with individual counseling.

I found a psychologist and got engaged with him for more than a year and and, and saw him on a regular, weekly, multiple times a week basis to work through that problem. That started me on that journey. But the, then the place that he referred to me during counseling during that 12 months, and then even afterwards, this 12 step program, and you know, you, you know, the NAS and the SA and the, and and AA and all those 12 step programs, there's hundreds of them now.

The variations of the 12 step program and, and pornography and sex. It's called essay sex, sex addicts. And, and then we refer to another book that's not called aa. It's called the White Book. It's, it's the white cover on both sides. It's completely white. It's a little bit smaller than the AA book is triple thickness of the SA book, but the white book is where most of the counseling and, and direction comes from.

But it was really heavy. The, the, when I said kept getting steered down the same path, the same direction, the same doorway. It was always a 12 step program. And so it was a 12 step program dedicated to addiction recovery broad. Or addiction recovery, that was sex anonymous. And, and then, you know, in there, I, sure, I would go to an NA meeting, I'd go to an AA meeting that's local.

I live in a rural part. I alluded to that earlier. And so there's not a truck load of essay meetings in this part of the planet. Right. And so, you know, you just get a 12 step meeting wherever you can get a 12 step meeting. And I sure did. I, I engaged in it and on a, on a real heavy thing, went through the steps.

Repeatedly times had multiple sponsors who worked me through, spent one time, 12 full months on the steps. 'cause it was like, I need to make sure that I'm doing these steps correct. Please help me make sure. Right. What am I missing? What did I forget? How can I do it again? You know, help me. I found one of the best, best sponsors on the planet and he was awesome and helped me out.

And it, and it worked, you know, un until it didn't. Right. You know? So I want to back up a step, which is your pornographic addiction. Did it move beyond the screen to real life affairs or physical sexual addiction, or was it viewing only? Viewing and the physical act. And then you know, there was no affairs engaged.

As a matter of fact, that was my that was my red flag moment. You know, we, we, we used the term rock bottom in the addiction recovery world. We're all familiar with that kind of thing. My rock bottom didn't actually take place. It was the planning of the rock bottom. And, and what that was, was, you know, one day I was actually planning the adulterous moment with another woman, and we had planned it.

We had prepared for it. We started setting the plans in motion, and in the middle of those plans, I heard my brain, I heard myself. Planning this out and then thought I had this aha moment, like, what the heck are you doing man? You're, you're not a guy that cheats on your wife. You love your wife and you have a great family and why on earth this?

And, and realizing, wow, this problem has brought me right to this edge. Oh my gosh, I need to get help. And and that was the day that it was like, I gotta call somebody. And I did. Thankfully I did. Was your wife ever aware of your sexual addiction at any point? My wife was aware of it to the extent that, which was a lot.

She knew it existed, but she didn't, you know, we're so good at hiding an addiction. We're so good at lying and manipulating. Right. And so, you know, certainly she was aware it existed, but to the extent, no you know, and were there times when I was sober and she thought that sobriety went on for 12 months, when it really only went on for one month.

And, you know, the, the lies were, oh, I know I came home at eight o'clock, but I, I had meetings at work and I, I was working late for whatever. And, and that's, so to that extent, no, she didn't know I lied to her and those, the reprimands that I've had to make sense. But yeah, she knew what was going on.

So did it actively affect your ability to be a husband or to be a father? And if so, how did it do So? Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. Thanks for asking. It, it, it did in a, in a very significant way, right? When you start looking at your wife in ways that you know, you're, you're mad at yourself, you're angry at who you are, you don't love yourself because you're going through this struggle that you repeatedly have told yourself, all right, that's the last time I'm done.

And then you find yourself right back in. And so, wow, I suck. Well, I'm worthless while I'm, I'm no good. And so because of that, that, that is then expressed outwardly to the people that are closest to you, at least in my case, that's what it was. And so that was expressed to my wife, that was expressed to my children.

And you know, to, to, to say I was an exemplary father in any way. And we have four beautiful kids. They're all adults now, but, was a, that was a pretty crappy father and a pretty crappy husband for a long time because of it. Right. The, the other part of that too, just lemme just, if I could add onto it, Mr.

Whiskey For sure. One of the main things that that pornography does to your mind is that brain fog that we're kind of familiar with, with, with addictions that are chemical. But it is severe and, and very much a real thing. Your ability to think, to concentrate, to focus on a point, to remember a topic to be a professional business owner or employee is not something that you can do, especially when you're engaged on a major part of the day.

Behind a computer screen and you're in an office by yourself and the door's closed, you're not getting your work done. You're not, you're not being an effective, em, an employer or, or business owner yourself. You're, you're the most unproductive citizen on the planet at that point. So, yeah, that's really what it did.

And what I'll say is something that was shared by. Another gentleman on the show who struggled with pornographic addiction, he gave an analogy that I just loved. It's one that I feel like paints the message very clearly, very visibly. And for anyone who hasn't struggled maybe this can help you relate and help if there's a spouse or someone in your life who is struggling or just better understand the conversation we're having, which is, he said that.

Take for example, whatever fruit you love, right? God made fruit as something very sweet, very beautiful on its own. Let's say like a strawberry, for example. Now you take what is manmade, like a chocolate bar that is packed full of this artificial sugar that just can't compete with the strawberry. You lose one, the admiration and appreciation of the beauty and sweetness of the strawberry.

And two, you grow dependent on the addiction from that, that chocolate bar and, and then in real life, you know. It with sugar addiction even, you know, you have to get something sweeter and sweeter and sweeter, or you build a tolerance to it and then you can't appreciate the natural beauty. And that's, that's how pornography works, right?

A lot of it is acting or exaggerated, or surgery, whatever it may be. And I mean, you kind of ended at it too. Like that destroys the intimacy in your relationship because you know you're. You get to the point where you're frustrated with your partner, like, why can't you perform the way that these people are?

You're not hitting the dopamine high that I need. But that's because, not because of your failure as a partner, but because I have made my tolerance or my necessity for it so high. Yeah, my baseline has gone up and you're not meeting that line anymore. And so, yeah, I would totally echo the sentiment that the other individual had mentioned.

I appreciate you sharing that. 'cause that is very much what it is, you know, for me and it, and it came from my past, but for me, it, it, it, I had to be explained to this by a doctor that finally had, had pointed that out to me that it was like when that individual on the screen shows her naked body, to me, that was an acceptance, that was a love, that was her loving me.

That was the twisted kind of reality that I had. And so that's what intimacy was from a baseline that was set way back. And, and that that's how I understood it at that time. And so it was really twisted. Right. So let's actually circle back because this is so relevant to you. Talked about the internet comes out and now you can find these, you know, pornographic images and videos.

How much more so in our day and age where almost a lot of the content on social media is sexualized, the music videos, the TV shows, the, the Instagram posts, the, the tweets, the YouTube shorts, whatever you're on, Facebook reels, it doesn't matter. There's so many platforms, pornographic materials, more accessible than ever before.

The average age of exposure is between eight and nine years old. These are children, very children. Children, right, who have easy access to this stuff because they're coming outta the womb and grabbing onto an iPad or a tablet, a phone. Parents are not always a hundred percent in control or actively monitoring their children the way they should be when it comes to internet access.

And so you have this stuff for free. Back in the day, you had to pay a lot of money. Now this stuff is free. It's everywhere. Right? So we talked about it's everywhere. Doing it free, that made it, yeah, it made it even more accessible. So you talked about going online and seeing these images. How did that happen?

Was it just, it came across by accident? Were you trying to search for something like that? How did this kind of really start back then? It was the curiosity button. You know, it was the, you started you know, checking out the internet and wondering all the things that it does. And it was an amazing kind of thing back in the nineties and let's, you know, brand new, right?

And, and and once you started figuring out, you could you could just about search for anything, then anything became, wow, wonder if I can search for this. I wonder if I can search for. You know this Playboy playmate that I saw when I was 14. Oh, I remember her. And let's, oh, look, I can find her. Oh my goodness.

And then certainly as soon as you hit that page, that opens up a plethora of other things. Of course. That, that now the algorithm is built and it's gonna of follow you. And so, um Right. Which is even worse nowadays. It was curiosity. Oh, yeah, yeah. Today it chases you. Right. You right. It chases you. It does like, yeah.

That's probably one of the worst things and all it takes is one click, you know, by accident or you know, in a moment of mistake, and then it all comes stumbling down. It's so much harder to build back up that wholesome for you page than once you get that content. And also it's just targeting, like I've mentioned before.

Because your accounts are connected across different accounts or just based off of your age and gender information that you put into one of these social media platforms, they will show you certain types of content based off just your age and gender to try and get you into it. I mean, I have seen news articles about how these social media platforms, they have paid psychologists who are being paid.

Their job is to get you to stay on the app. You know, just like the people who design casinos, right? They are paid to say, Hey, how can we keep people in the casino? Right? Yeah. Right. They need to hire some of these people for the military. Like how can we make the military better to get people to stay? But you know, they seem to pay people.

Hey man, brother, they pay someone to say, how can we make this the worst possible experience sometimes, you know? Right, exactly. But that aside, you know, I want to ask a, a pretty interesting question in my opinion, which is your. Parents, the or, or guardians, whoever raised you, right? Mm-hmm. What was their message in parenting around pornographic content?

Obviously with the creation of the internet at first not, it's not like it came with a control book for parents to say, Hey, have these talks with their children. It was all new grounds. But do you feel like any of this was maybe could have been prevented by better parenting in the degree of having those conversations?

Yeah, maybe, maybe not. That's a good, and it was mom and dad. That's how I was raised in a Christian home with a brother, an older brother, and a younger sister. And there was the idea of, you know, sexual purity. And it wasn't strictly reinforced, but certainly there was that idea and education that was around that.

And. And and that was there, right? The foundations were there and the front. But on the back, you know, I was the kid that would sneak into my dad's dress or drawer and steal the Playboy magazines that were underneath the socks, right? And mm-hmm. And that was the initial, and, and probably preteen and certainly throughout my teenage years, that was the initial.

Initiation to a, a beautiful woman is, is the playboy in Penthouse magazines that and the neighborhood kids had 'em. And, and so that was part of what my life was. And that started that baseline, that started that understanding of what it is. But really it's even a little bit further back. And this is an interesting story in the sense that.

I didn't, I knew that I understood that there was something wrong, some kind of trauma, something bad that happened in my life, but I just didn't know what it was. I just always, as an adult, had that feeling. It's really kind of a weird thing. Some people know what I mean, but I could never pinpoint, and here's why my, my brain did such a fantastic job of shutting off.

My memory of my childhood that I didn't remember most things, even from a little kid all the way through my teenage years, even still to this day, a lot of it's blocked off. If I'm sitting in a room with my brother and my sister and they say, Hey, remember when we did this one thing? And I'll go, oh yeah, I remember that.

If they tell the story. My brain will go, yeah, it'll attach to it, but me left on my own druthers to remember some things that happened during my growing up. Not at all. It wasn't until I was in recovery, I was in. In an an addiction recovery facility. I owned my own, my first practice, and then at that time, I was looking to hire an individual from within the industry and we're like, we weren't sure if this person was gonna be a good fit for our clients.

And I said, you know what? I'll go do a couple sessions with her. Let's see. Let's see how good she is. They guys say she's great. And in those sitting down moments and asking the questions, she said she, I really. Sense, like there's some trauma here. Jimmy, do you mind if we do a little bit farther deep digger deep, a deeper digging and, and do some eventually came into EMDR work and I said, no, let's do that.

And so through that process, literally what happened in that moment was flashes from my own brain of visions that happened when I was five years old. With a babysitter who was 18 years old and didn't maybe register that as trauma as a five-year-old, I had no baseline for that. But you see that in your fifties and recognize those scenes were, that was coming outta my eyes.

I'm the one that saw that. I'm the one that was doing those things with my hands and she was touching me here in these do these places. And you and I would hear that story and go, whoa, that's. Molestation, that's fondling. Those are, those things are traumatic, right? And so I'm telling you, I was in my fifties before I experienced the trauma that happened when I was five, six years old, which is odd, right?

It was there enough to to know that there was a problem, know that there was something wrong. But in that moment when it happened at a five-year-old, that's what set the baseline for what is intimacy. What is love? What is physical touch with a female? What is beauty? What is attractiveness? What is sex?

So it's no surprise then to look backwards from mid fifties and go, wow, you had a messed up. Idea of what intimacy was and pornography because of something that happened to a confused little boy at age five. Wow. That screwed up. But that realization came after, which is kind of a different path I recognize.

But nonetheless, I think I, I wanna share that story so that people can understand. Look, this is not a one size fits all kind of program where addiction's the same for everybody. Just because you say you're an alcoholic and you say you're a porn addict and you say you do use meth, that does not mean we're the same.

It absolutely means we're not the same. So anyways, thanks for letting me share that for sure. I actually want to move into that direction of, so what did you find, 'cause you repeatedly went through the 12 steps on multiple different occasions, relapsing. What did you feel like was failing you? You know, part of it was, there was a couple things.

So part of it was 12 steps is a very a spiritual based idea, right? There's a spiritual deficit that's there. And though I'm a very highly spiritual individual, recognize that, yep, this makes sense. This is a part of what it was, but then when it didn't work, what does a guy to do? Like, okay, I'm supposed to hand this over to God, my God, as I know him and he's gonna take that from me.

Great. That's fantastic. And yet he didn't. But, but he did for Mr. Whiskey and, and he did for Joe and Tom and Bob. So maybe he, maybe he loves them more than he loves me. Mm-hmm. Maybe I'm not worthy of his love or him taking this problem for me. So it, it severely tanked my spiritual relationship with God during that period of my life.

And so, and that's unfortunate, right? That's that's, that's no one's fault except for an industry that kept saying, Jimmy, here's the solution. And so, but it was right. And that's not aligned with what scripture teaches, which is God doesn't take everything from us, right? Yeah. So this expectation that, you know.

Surrendering to a higher power in having the higher power take something from your two different things because you can surrender something and God can still have it in your life. So I think that's a really great point and you're the first person on the show to make that point, so I thank you for that.

You betcha. You betcha. So that led me down to looking at other things, right? It, it got to a point where it was like, you know, this is, this is obviously something else I'm missing. What, why am I so broke? Why can I not seem to hold this together for more than six months before relapse happens again?

What's going on? And started doing some study got into neuroscientific. Really looked at neuroimmunology, neuro epigene epigenetics quantum physics looked at a lot of different science to say, rewiring my brain psychologically is probably part of what needs to be part, and then had to learn what that meant and how to go through those processes of what it is to rewire a brain.

And, and, and that became a big part of my life and that became where sobriety happened. And on top of that, that trauma work that I went back to kind of sealed, it kind of said, oh wow. There's the missing link that I never knew because anytime I walked into a 12 step meeting, there was no counselor giving me an ACE score or an exam or giving me any kind of trauma assessment in any way to determine that.

And so those were two other elements that I didn't have for that seven year period of time that I needed to add back into Jimmy's equate, you know, my personal combination of where sobriety landed. It was adding those other things in that said, okay, now you're healthy. And I would say this, and I know there's gonna be people out there that, that wanna push back on it.

I have great respect for the idea that says, once an addict, always an addict. I'm an alcoholic and I'm always giving an alcoholic. And you know what I would say that's great. If you need to say that and make sure that keeps you in check, then freaking amen. Keep saying it. I'm good with that. I don't believe necessarily that that's the same for everybody.

Meaning you can get to a point in your life where it's so far behind you and I, and I've healed those wounds of the past, that I'm healthy. I'm good now. I don't, I don't, I don't wanna go there anymore. I have overcome that. Thank you. Praise Lord, that I've made it to this part finally of my life, you know?

And so, anyway. Right. So you felt like the 12 step program kind of expected you to already know your trauma or deal with that on your own? Like there was no support with that. Which a lot of addicts, if you ask them why they, they drink, you know, they give you the surface level answer and there's always a deeper answer that sometimes they don't even realize themselves or that they don't want to share.

So I understand your point to the degree of like, Hey, we need someone to actually really work with us. On the root cause of our drinking. You know, a lot of it, yeah. I won't say that. What 12 steps is symptom management. But I would say it's more symptom management than root cause destruction if you don't know the root cause.

Yeah. And so I do think that's really important. Can I elaborate on that point just for a minute? Sure. I just had this conversation the other day and it was very interesting. So let's just take three individuals in front of us who are all alcoholics. Now, the, the first individual. Started drinking in their teens.

And the reason they started drinking because of trauma, when they were younger and they needed to bury, they didn't want to think about it and numb the pain from that trauma. And so they started drinking, they kept doing it. It became a problem. They went into treatment. We said, you're an alcoholic. The second individual, you know, drank a little bit in high school, but got to college and somebody double dog dared them to take those five shots right there.

And they did and they liked it. They thought just like all of us are addicts, if five is good, then maybe well shoot six is better, maybe eight. Let's go to 12. Right. And they kept doing that until it became a problem. One day they went to treatment because they got in trouble with the law driving. Mm-hmm.

And they realized, and they got through that, oh, well, it looks like you drink too much. You're an alcoholic. The third guy went to a party when he was in high school and recognized that when he had a drink or two. He could tell a joke and people laughed. He could tell a, he could talk to the pretty girl over there in the corner and he felt comfortable, right?

All three of these guys 'cause the same guy, he went to treatment a bunch 'cause he kept doing it. Drinking's good until it became a problem. Went to treatment, they stamped him. Look, oh, you're an alcoholic. You better go through this door over here where alcoholism is, right? But all three of these guys started drinking for a different reason.

One of them has trauma. One of them just loves alcohol. One of them has intimacy or attachment disorder. He just, you know, he is gotta work on those kinds of things. And if we keep shoving these people through the same door and saying, here's the fix because obviously drink too much. Must be an alcoholic.

That must be this door over here, stamped aa right? Then that's why we're not fixing these people 'cause we're not addressing the root cause of what got 'em to that thing. Maybe we got 'em sober for three months or, or one month or 30, whatever it was. We didn't help 'em fix the original problem, and all three of these guys that I talked with started doing it for a completely different reason.

It's the point you were making. So how do we, how do we fix that? Then what, how do we approach this so that we can analyze it on that individualized, customized level? That is a great question, and that's it's one of the things that we call, you know, a customized care and, customized care is really all about assessing an individual.

It, it's understanding that, that that addiction is very individualized and very customized to the individual, and, and that means that the recovery, the treatment program, the treatment protocols must be very customized and individualized to that individual, that person as well. And so we can't just bring them into a treatment center and give them the standard assessments, which basically.

Yes, you drink too much. I, I see you're an addict and your drug of choice is alcohol. That's, that's an alcoholic. I can see it clearly on the page. And so we have to give them more assessments. We've gotta recognize there's personality, there's communication style, there's trauma history that's important.

There is cultural that we need to assess with that kinda thing. There's many factors that are involved in trying to assess an individual. Mood disorders are a part of these things that we've gotta bring them through a multiplicity. And I think currently we have 12 to. 12 or 13 assessments here that we try to evaluate an individual so they come in so we can get a fuller scope.

And with that, then better customize a plan that's custom for you. Mr. Whiskey. If you had a twin brother and you both were alcoholics, I'm telling you your plan should be different than your brother's plan, right? Your different people. Yeah. Your solution's gonna be different. And so with all of this information, I wanna move into your book and what role that plays in all of this and vice versa.

Yeah. So the book like I said earlier, alluded to earlier the idea that it just really started from being frustrated in the industry and seeing the problem happening and over again. And certainly my path speaks to that a little bit, but got into an industry where I kept seeing failure happen and I.

The frustration came and the more I studied different modalities, the big, one of the biggest things that I saw, the two biggest things I would solve was this one size fits all kind of treatment idea. Do you know today in this country, 70 to 80% of the treatment centers that are out there are primarily one modality centric.

It's a 12 step program, and I, I recognize that through the conversation, many people will be like, oh, Jimmy just hates 12 step programs. That is. Not true. I got sober at a 12 step program. I love, we, we have 12 step programs here and we bring our guys to 12 step programs and we encourage part of that. It's, it's not true.

My problem with there being one modality out there is it's the one that everybody knows, right? It go to your primary care doctor and say, man, I think I got a problem with an addiction. He's gonna say, what? That go to a tough step program. Talk to a, a, a psychologist, a psychiatrist, a counselor. You better go to a 12 step program.

Get in trouble with the law. Talk to the probation officer. The attorney, the judge, the COP 12 step program. Talk to a pastor, a priest, a, a rabbi, a bishop. Yeah, dude. 12 step program. Have the balls to talk to your mom's best friend, sister, and say, man, I think I. Hey, I got a 12 step program. Here's the thing.

Every single one of those people are advising you from a place of love and wanting to help. Sincerely. Right? Right. But it's really the only thing that they know. That's the one answer because it's the one answer that they know. But there is no neurological basis or clinical. Evidence that shows that this one modality fixes everybody.

As a matter of fact, contrary to the, it's the opposite. It shows that a dictionary, that it shows that a 12 step program is as effective as effective, not more effective, as effective as all of the other modalities that are out there. And so we gotta stop shoving people through a one size fits all doorway.

We gotta stop saying. This is where you go. We need to evaluate people on a better basis. I don't know how I got to there, but where, where did you want to go? Well, so we talking about, I'll keep going if you don't shut it up brother. We are talking about the solution and so one of those that you're kind of alluding at, and we were talking about your book, you know, we're talking about people need to be aware.

Of the other types, I call them non-traditional, you call them other modalities, but the different ways through which people can get treatment and recovery from, you know, whatever their addiction is, what, what are the different ways of sobriety? And we need people to be educated on this so that you're not always being directed to the same place, especially if that place has already.

Failed you or you failed through that program multiple times. So how do we spread that awareness? Obviously podcast conversations like these are one, obviously your book sounds like it's one, but that's the biggest thing and it's, it's gonna be a time consuming thing, right? People are so ingrained in our culture to say 12 step, like you said, everyone you named.

So really the solution that I'm hearing, I would love your input on it is, you know, spreading that awareness so that when someone is dealing with addiction, they know that there are multiple routes available to them to make an educated, informed decision based off what would be best for them. Yeah. So let's talk about a couple of 'em, right?

Certainly trauma is one of them. There are still recovery centers out there without a trauma specialist on board or without a trauma assessments that they do, and that they're just trying to shove an individual through a 30 day program of sobriety. Right? And so when, when you're as an, as somebody looking to get into a program and you are on those onboarding questions or.

Being interviewed for that, and you ask about trauma therapy and the conversation is, Hey, let's just worry about getting you sober and healthy and let's worry about trauma later. That, that's probably the wrong direction. Right. I was gonna say, if they're not gonna be at least that comprehensive and, and here's why.

Right. And I'm never gonna ever say. Every addict needs trauma therapy. That's just not the case. I, I made an example earlier and lined out the idea that some of them don't need that, but, but the statistics are pretty simple, right? 60 to 90% of everybody that's an addict would score a four or higher on a ACE test.

What's that mean? That means that there's trauma somewhere in their life or in their history that needs to be addressed. And so it's prevalent, more prevalent than with addicts, than than other people. And so if that's not part of the modalities that you have in your treatment center, fix that crap. Let's talk about neuro neurobiologic, neuroscientific interventions.

And there are so many of them. TMS is one that's an up and coming one. Trans magnetic or transcranial magnetic treatment, which, which is stimulating the mind and resetting and basing the dopamine levels so that I can clear up that mind on a ra more rapid basis on a more soon basis and, and stop having the brain fog and then start worrying on tools that can help me through the rest of my recovery.

Just real neurolinguistic programming, learning how to rewire the brain. Learning, learning how to talk to ourselves. C-B-T-C-B-T for CBT, by the way, is a, is a great one. That's a computer-based training for cognitive behavioral therapy. Which is which, which is basically cognitive behavioral therapy attached to a computer.

So an individual can sit online or sit in front of a computer and go through. Helping them rewire their, your brain or re rewire CBT is really what it is, is you learning how to argue with yourself about your problem, who you are and how you are. Right. And so, learning how to have a better, healthier conversation.

And so those are just a couple, those are just a handful of, of ideas that are out there that we need to make sure that we're, we're zooming into. Anyway, yeah. Right, so to help participate in spread all of this, obviously you're guessing on podcasts, you wrote your book, addicted to Failure, and then you also, you know, have Beacon Charity.

So you know what is kind of, what can we all do to help with this mission? Addicted to failure.com is where the book is. Get the book and spread it around. If you can't afford the book, freaking get ahold of me and I'll send you a damn book. I'm happy to, I mean, really, I wanna get the word out there and, and if it costs me $10 to deliver a book, I really don't care.

And, and we have to work on looking at new, new modalities and more comprehensive treatment. We need to look at a 30 day model and say, why are we still. Treating people for 28 days to 30 days, why does that even exist? You know, all evidence to the contrary says that it takes an addicted brain to heal based on time, not on a calendar of 30 days, but it's still the standard in the industry.

And the reason, the only reason that it's the standard is because that's what I know. I can put a claim in at the insurance company and that's what they'll pay me 31 days. They won't pay me, but 30 days is where I'm gonna. And so that has become the idea of the standard where. People think, oh, well, the industry said that if I go to this program and I do it for 30 days, and I graduated, there was a ceremony, I was there and they said, congratulations, I must be fixed.

Look, that company that had that graduation ceremony and, and you there for 30 days, they don't know. They know for a fact they didn't fix you. They, they're, there's none of them that are like, I guarantee that I can fix a guy in 30 days. We all know, right? Mr. Whiskey took you 30 years to get into your addiction, but if you come here for 30 days, I can wave my magic wand at you for 30 days and you're fixed bull crap.

We just know we can get paid in 30 days. So part of the fix is that, and you mentioned too, and I'll, I'll wrap up with it, is, is beacon Charities and Beacon Treatment Centers. You know, one of the things that we've decided that we're gonna do is, is my charitable organization, beacon Charities, contributes to our our recovery centers, meaning it pays them to operate.

And we do that in a way that allows us to have an individual for longer than 30 days, for six months, eight months, 10 months, not because that. The program went that long and then you graduated. But because we've released you or you've graduated or accomplished based on an evaluation that said you're healthy.

Mm-hmm. And maybe it's time for you to go out on your own Right. And give it a try. Right. That's really what we should be doing is saying, let's evaluate. You got a game plan and you're healthy and you're doing good. Hey man, go give it a try. Look. And if it doesn't work, come back in a week. Come back in three weeks, whatever you gotta, and let's do one more month.

Let's just figure out, well, we gotta fill in the gap. And, and make it that. But my wife and I have contributed over just about $2.2 million of our own money and, and, and sunk it back into the treatment centers so that they can operate on a longer basis that insurance is not gonna cover. And so, I don't know how many.

Centers are gonna copy that. But you know, if you wanna help, go to beacon charities.com and, and that's a place where you can help us out and contribute. We'd appreciate it, that, that well of money that Jimmy has is running out. Like I gotta figure out another way to keep it, keep that pipeline full so that we can keep doing the things that we do as we expand.

That link in addition to your book, are all gonna be in a description below. That way people can check it out, wonder. Like I said, if you are not struggling with sobriety or recovery or addiction, I think this is important information for you to know to help those in your life. Like I said, nowadays almost all of us know someone who is addicted or has struggled with an addiction.

It's becoming more and more common actually. So this is important information to have. So please share this conversation. And most importantly, even if you don't share this episode, just remind the people in your life that there are other modalities, other methods of recovery that they should look into and can look into and, you know, be an encouragement in their life.

That if one system is failing, then continuously that there are other options out there. And then Mr. Jimmy Applegate, so great to have you here. I have a lot of respect and honor for, you know, the work that you do, helping others and really. You know, again, this isn't a bash on what exists already. This is like, what is going wrong?

How can we analyze that to help more people? Like you said, you shared those success and failure rates in the beginning, and that is obviously we're happy for any person who stays sober, but if we can have even more people be sober, how much greater? So thank you for your work and for your time today. You bet.

Thanks for having me.