Silent No Longer: Bringing Toxic Relationships Out From Behind Closed Doors

Today, I sit down with Mesha Paul, survivor, author, and host of the Silent No Longer Podcast, to have a conversation about domestic violence, childhood trauma, and the long journey of healing. Ms. Paul shares her story of growing up in instability, experiencing long-term sexual abuse, and later finding herself in multiple toxic and abusive relationships without realizing that what she was living was not normal.

In this episode, we explore how domestic violence goes far beyond physical harm. Ms. Paul shares that there are multiple types of domestic abuse, including emotional, psychological, and intimidation-based abuse that often goes unrecognized. We discuss how silence, fear, children, financial dependence, and misplaced forgiveness keep people trapped in harmful relationships, and how abuse behind closed doors is often invisible to friends, family, and even churches.

We also discuss Ms. Paul’s faith journey, her book Behind Closed Doors, and how learning God’s definition of love became a turning point in her healing. From generational trauma and abandonment to boundaries, self-worth, and learning to speak out, this episode emphasizes why survivors must recover loudly so others do not suffer quietly. 

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*Couple O' Nukes LLC and Mr. Whiskey are not licensed medical entities, nor do they take responsibility for any advice or information put forth by guests. Take all advice at your own risk.

Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and I am super excited for today's episode because it is our guest first time guesting. So give her a round of applause. She can't hear it, but she can feel it in her spirit. So thank you for applauding.

And you know, it is always so interesting. I, as a host of a podcast, I remember the first few times guesting, it's like, it's so weird going from hosting to guesting. It's like, yes, I'm, obviously, I talk for a living and stuff, but it's like being the one answering the questions. And I dunno, you just, you become so self-conscious.

Everything when you're hosting, it's like. You know, I have all the power. I can do whatever I want. And I always sound smart. But then when you're guesting, you're like, do I sound stupid right now? You know? So it's gonna be a lot of fun. Today we are here with Meh Paul, a lovely woman who I actually guested on her podcast First, the Silent, no Longer Podcast.

We're gonna get into that. Of course. It's for survivors ready to find healing, hope, and freedom. And we always talk about we recover loudly so others don't die quietly. Silence is something that kills. It's something that keeps people in. Domestic violence, sexual assault, other toxic relationships. And that silence is because of many things.

It could be financial bondage, it could be because of children or marriage. It could be because of love, and you know. Uncontrolled forgiveness. And there's, there's so many things that go into it. Fear, of course. So we're gonna get into that conversation today and talk about all the different things that play factors into this, including also the faith in what role that plays.

Mepa is not just a podcaster and a survivor, but she's also the author of Behind Closed Doors and a first time guest. So, Misha Paul, so great to have you here. And could you please tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. First I want to tell you it's Misha. Oh, but that's okay. So basically I have grown up in, around toxic behavior for my entire life, and I didn't realize that that wasn't normal.

I went through two bad relationships, after, you know, I was 18 and after my divorce, I realized what domestic violence was. And now it's my main purpose to let people know that they're not alone in their relationships and that toxic behavior and domestic violence is not normal and it means more than just physical harm, which that's what I thought domestic violence was my entire life.

My borderline was don't lay your hands on me or we're done. And it should be way before that because there's so much that starts before you get to that point. So I wrote a book explaining six different types of domestic violence and there's a lot more to it or many more. But, and then I just put my story in it and I just wanted to educate people who may not know.

And then, I mean, that's pretty much it. I have my podcast Silent No Longer, where people come on and they tell their story and we just sit down and have an everyday conversation about, I don't know, just anything they wanna let people know on where not to be alone at. So. Yeah, a hundred percent. I think, you know, one of the biggest things that keeps people trapped in toxic relationships and abusive relationships is the feeling of isolation.

They feel like they can't turn through their family because they're too ashamed to ask for help, or they don't want to ask for help. Or other people, A lot of times they don't want to get other organizations involved because sometimes that scales it up to a type of confrontation that they don't want.

So I think it's important to know that there is a lot of support out there that doesn't have to be so involved. There is just support as far as listening and comfort, and I think that's really important, and that's one of the beauty beautiful things about podcasting in books, is that you can have someone listening to you without, you know, having that personal relationship with them, without getting them involved in your business.

You know, just knowing that you're not alone can mean so much. But I want to go back to what got you into this relationship in the first place and kind of watch it unfold. Well, my first relationship, 'cause I, I was in two relationships. I was one with my kids' dad and I was known one for like 12 or 13 years, mainly because we had kids and, you know, we wanted to try making it work because we had kids together, which is usually the main thing when you're in a relationship with you're other kids.

And it's, it seems when you're in a relationship when you have kids, it almost feels like there's no way of getting out because now you have kids to take care of. How are you gonna do it on your own? And I was kind of in that situation, but I felt like every single time I got almost out, then I would get stuck back into it.

As far as, you know, reaching out for help, I didn't have any help. My family was kind of old fashioned, like my grandparents and we split up one time my grandma would tell me, you know, just try to keep the peace and stay together because. I guess that's kind of how they did it back in the day.

But nobody really knew what was happening behind closed doors. And that's why I named my book Behind Closed Doors. 'cause it's very important to understand what one, when people see you around them, that's not what your real relationship is like. So when you're trying to tell somebody, Hey, my relationship is, and you talk negatively, they're gonna say, oh, but I see this person doing all these things like taking care of your kids and helping you do this and helping you do that.

And maybe they aren't doing that behind closed doors. Maybe that's where all the fighting is. The kids' dad and my relationship was more, it was kind of the angry aspect of it. We fought all the time. I am not sure it, when you get in relationships like that and you get out, a lot of it, you just kind of block out. But all I remember is all the anger that was in the house all the time and there was things thrown all the time. And I can remember my kids were so violent to one another and I couldn't figure it out and mm-hmm There was a complete shift on how the kids were at home than when they were in school.

Like my one daughter would come home and she would just be so angry and throwing things and screaming and beating up her sisters. And I couldn't figure out what was happening. 'cause she was a sweet little girl. So I asked the school, you know, Hey, is she like this at school? And they're like, oh no, she's the sweetest little thing.

Helps everybody. Loves everybody. And that's when I started seeing what the impact of home life was doing to the kids. But, and then my, my second relationship was more. The psychological and emotional abuse. And it was, I don't know if it was like more so when he realized that I wasn't gonna stand down to how he was to me, then he would go after the kids, and it was usually one specific kid.

So I always felt like I had to step in. And then it would be a whole separate argument of I was being controlling because I wasn't letting him control everybody else. But as a mom, when you see that somebody is tearing your kids down to the point where they, you know, wanna commit suicide because they can't handle the situation anymore, you know you're gonna wanna step in.

You are not gonna wanna let that person sit there and continue tearing your kid down. And if you have to take the brunt end of it, then you will because you're trying to protect your kids. So that was more of kind of how our relationship was. And that was the kid's stepfather, correct? Yes. Mm-hmm. And we were together for.

Nine years we were married. The kids', kids', dad and I were not married. Hmm. Okay. So that first relationship you had with your children's father, how did you meet him? Oh goodness. I met him through a boyfriend before him. It's a really, I was a mess when I was a kid. I was going through a whole lot. I was actually sexually molested my whole entire life and then raped right out of high school.

And after that I was just, I was broken and then I didn't have any of attention my entire life. And the only person I ever got attention from was the person who was sexually molesting me. So my brain was, whoever gave me the most attention in my life was the person that I was gonna be with. And so if somebody gave me just slightest attention, I jumped right into a relationship with them.

And, you know, all goes back to your, past trauma from when you were a kid and how you grew up and your beliefs that you were given as you were growing up. And I feel why you end up in these relationships. And that's why it goes back to inner healing of breaking these belief patterns and then, you know, just building yourself up.

You really have to learn to love yourself after relationships. And if you don't take that time to really heal after a toxic relationship, the pattern's just going to continue. And that's what happened with me because I didn't realize, I didn't realize anything different. I didn't realize that there was a whole other side I'm trying to explain it so it doesn't like go off into like a little rabbit trail.

But so when you're in those types of relationships, that's the only thing that you know. And the only type of attention that, you know, and I didn't see any other different type of attention until after I left my marriage. And then when I seen people actually be nice and uplift me and didn't want anything from me, they were just genuinely, you know, like, Hey, you're a great person.

That's when I started seeing a different side of myself. Does that make sense? It does. No, I get that a hundred percent. A lot of a lot of traumas and a lot of relationships that have high sexual activity or frequent partners. Mm-hmm. Does stem from, you know, the way children were treated, whether that was traumatic or via assault, but I wanna get into at what age did your sexual molestation start, and was this from a family member?

I don't know. The earliest I remember, I think I was five and it had to have been going on a while before that. Yeah, so it was a family member, it was a cousin and it was my entire life. So, but yeah. So, but that was separate from the rape incident or They were the same person? It was the same person.

So when I was younger like I knew what was happening was wrong, but I didn't know how to stop it or what to do about it 'cause nothing like that was ever talked about in my family. And then I ended up leaving the state that I was living in. We ended up moving to another state and then when I came back it turned into he pretty much brainwashed me.

I went through so much trauma that period that while I was gone, those couple years and the living situation that I was in, that when I came back I just needed somebody to show me attention. Like somebody really showed me that they loved me and he figured that out and he used that. So he would tell me that I was beautiful all the time, and he would tell me that he loves me.

If I would go over to their house and just tell 'em like how horrible things were at home and he would gimme a hug and he'd be like, oh, well I love you. And just that sort of thing would just, it just snowballed for years and years and years. And it was just to the point where I literally thought that I loved him and that we were gonna run away together and be together forever.

And I think about that now and it's just, it's so crazy how something like that can take place. And then eventually, it. He wanted to escalate and I didn't. And so, yeah, like he raped me. It wasn't like a violent rape though, and that's why I, after that I fell so hard because, you know, when you talk about rape, what do you talk about?

The violent side of it, right? But there's also, if somebody's doing something to you and you say no, but they're still trying to do, you know, trying to have sex with you or whatever they're trying to do to you, you said no. So therefore, anything past that, no, I don't want this. That is rape. And I don't think that's what people understand, like it doesn't matter and everybody deals with it in a, in a certain way.

Like me, I dissociated from it. So I took myself away because that's what I was used to doing my entire life. Whenever something was horrible in life or scary, I would dissociate and take myself away. So that's what I did. Even though it wasn't violent, it's still rape because I didn't want it. And I said no.

So you talked about at one point, you know, loving this man and wanting to run away with him. So why did you not want to go that step further and have sex with him? Because I knew that to me, sex was something that you did with your husband and he wasn't my husband. And at that point it's like, you know that everything.

Is wrong. 'cause I was in it for so long and I was really starting to wake up, be like, what is happening? How did I get myself into this situation? How did it escalate so much? And the stupid part is we discussed it and I told him, I'm like, this is wrong. We shouldn't be doing this. And I feel like the whole thing was a test.

And that's why I fell apart in my whole I thought God hated me because of this whole scenario. And I've never actually talked about this before, but it, there was a test. So we met up and I told him, I was like, look, you know, this is getting too far outta hand, you know, I don't want this no more. And not that I even wanted it to begin with, but it's like, right, this is wrong.

You know? And I'm 18 now. It's like I'm catching on. I'm growing, I'm older, you know, I'm not this little, how goodness, how old was I? I think I was. Seventh grade, however old you are in seventh grade, what? 12, 13. And it's like you sit there and you have a conversation with somebody and he's like, oh, well you should just come over and hang out and see what happens.

And it's like, no. And he kept pushing me and kept pushing me. And I, I see that pattern later in my life that whenever people would intimidate me with anything in that sort of way, I would just give in. And the sense when I say give in with him, is like, I went to the house and I was like, nothing's gonna happen because I'm not gonna let it.

Well, I didn't let it, but I don't know. It's, I, I hate really never talked about it, ever. This is the very first time I've ever talked about it. But I do feel like it's very important, but it's hard to explain and talk about if somebody doesn't know or never been in this situation. And it, it, and the reason why I've never talked about it before is because.

If you sit here and you tell somebody, oh yeah, they tested you well, why did you let them test you? Why, why, why? All these questions? Well, to you it makes sense because you're looking from the outside in. But when you're so involved and you have all this trauma in life and everything piled on top, I don't know.

I, I, I blamed myself for years, for so many years. Like, I could have stopped it. It wouldn't happen if this happened, it wouldn't happen if I would've done this. It's all my fault because I made this decision, you know? But at the end of the day, I said, no. So it's not my fault. And it really truly took me so many years for me to understand that and know that, and I pushed God outta my life for years.

And I really, truly, that believe that. That's why I just kept ending up in the same cycles over and over again because I just had so much blame and shame inside me. I want to go back to the root cause of this, which you talked about escaping trauma from after you moved outta state. Was that just the trauma of moving to a new state and trying to fit into a new school environment?

You mentioned your living situation. Was this, your relationship with your parents was toxic or abusive? What kind of was the trauma that you were escaping from? Oh goodness. How much time do you have? Like a 30,000 foot overview. Yeah. I'm trying to, trying to figure out a good way to say it in a very kind of quick way. So I was basically in my mom's journey during that time. I did not realize it, but. When I was younger, I found this out many, many, many years later. When I was younger, she had a boyfriend who I guess from my understanding, she had, I don't know if she turned him in, something happened. He went to prison and we ended up in Vegas. I never knew why we went there. We didn't have family there as far as I knew. And I find out later that she was probably just running because she was scared. Well, you know, her going through all of her stuff, it was like a lot of drugs, a lot of boyfriends being kicked out in the middle of the night, being homeless, living in shelters, walking the streets during the day.

I went to like four schools in a month. I mean, it, it was horrible. Yeah. And it was just like one traumatic thing after another, after another, after another. And I was there off and on from third to fifth grade in Vegas, and I got taken away in fifth grade. I went and lived with one aunt, uncle that I had never met before.

They were very nice. And then I went and lived with another aunt, uncle that I never met before. And that's what changed my life. I feel like if I would've never gone and lived with them, my whole life would be different. Today. I would not be the person I am today because they taught me what real parents are supposed to be like.

They taught me love. They taught me. They got me all caught up in school. Like I was in the fifth grade and I think I was at like second grade level. It was so bad. But yeah, they got me all caught up in school. They let me have sleepovers with all my friends. Like I actually got to live a childhood.

When I was with them. And then sixth grade, somehow my mom got me back and we were with living with her boyfriend for like a year. 'cause I was there for the whole year. And then we were still in Nevada at the time. And then one day my aunt and uncle showed up that I had lived with before and I said, Hey, what are you doing here?

My mom wasn't home. Boyfriend wasn't home. I think I just got home from school or something. And she's like, oh, we're here to come pick you up. My mom never told me. And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, your mom didn't tell you that you're gonna come live with us? I said, no. So I packed up all my stuff in like Walmart, grocery bags, and then just left.

Like my mom was not there to say goodbye or anything and I was just like, dang. That's probably where my abandonment and discarded emotions come from. Of course, you know, it's like a lot of this has been revealed to me in like the last year 'cause I've never thought about anything from my past. I just didn't never wanna think about it.

But when you go through your, to heal, you have to go back and you have to figure out like, where is all this stemming from? From like the root. So you can heal that so you can move forward. But yeah, it was just a lot of trauma. So much trauma. I mean, and that's just, that's just like the very thin layer.

Right. And you talked about that was kind of what pushed you into the comfort of your cousin who was molested you. So in between that for prevention, what would you recommend for people who are in that situation to, you know, avoid going into the comfort of someone else? What should they lean into in terms of coping skills and faith to be comforted and healed rather than seek that healing in something that's also bad for them?

Yeah, well first of all, if you are being groomed or molested in any way, family or not, tell somebody. And if that person doesn't listen, go to somebody else. 'cause apparently my family kind of thought there was something going on, but, you know, never really did anything about it. But yeah, definitely tell somebody.

And then I don't know, for me, I, I really had to. Dig deep in myself. And so when I was married like two years before I got my divorce, I couldn't figure out why. Nobody ever loved me in my life. 'cause I felt like my mom didn't love me because everything I went through with her, you know, and neither one of my, like my, the kids' dad or my husband didn't love me because the way that they were treating me, but also from all the molestation, I thought that for somebody to love you, they had to be some sort of sexually with you.

So. My marriage. It wasn't like that. And so I broke and I was like, why does nobody love me? And that's when God told me. He's like, well, let me love you. And then he showed me what love was. And then after I realized how he showed me what love was, then I had to figure out how to love myself. 'cause the hardest thing I believe is learning how to love yourself.

It's, it's hard to even understand the concept of what love is when you've never experienced it in your life. And everybody always asks me, well, didn't you love your husband? Didn't you love your boyfriend? Didn't you love this person? Have you ever experienced love? And my honest answer would have to be no.

I mean, I don't, I don't believe I've ever really loved somebody before and I don't believe anybody ever has really loved me. You know? 'cause you can't call that love. But you really have to dig deep. Process all the emotions of

all the hurt and shame that you have inside you. It's gonna be hard and you're gonna probably cry a lot, but it's okay to sit in your room and just sit in the emotions. 'cause it's really important to sit in your emotions and figure out and take your back. Take yourself back to the first time you ever felt that emotion.

That's what I do. And still now things come up and I have to take myself all the way back. Okay? When was the very first time I've ever felt this emotion? What was going on in my life? What was taking place? How was I feeling? How old was I? That's important to know how old you are. And then go throughout your life in major time periods of your life, when things have happened, and when you had that same emotion again.

And just figure out what the pattern is and then sit on the pattern and then. You have to pretty much rewire your brain to figure out, so that pattern doesn't keep happening. That's my biggest advice. That's how I did it. Unfortunately, one of the things you mentioned there that I want unpack is something that we've talked about before in the show, which is a lot of times when there is sexual molestation or assault within a family, most of the time other family members know about it and do not act on it.

A couple people I've interviewed experienced the same thing and their family, or interviewed people who experienced the same thing, which is true, truly sad to me. I don't understand how as any family member you could do that. But you know, people want to prioritize keeping a certain family member's reputation intact or their relationship with that family member intact.

So it is very unfortunate and oftentimes you will have to seek help outside of your family. Mm-hmm. And I know people don't want to break apart their families, but you know, your safety and health should come first always. So unfortunately, what you said is, is very true. And then I think a lot of people have it backwards.

They think that. Love comes from sex, but sex actually comes from love, you know? Mm-hmm. Sex is a divine union that comes from people being in, in, in love. Love in the sense of how it is put out in the Bible. That is the type of love word to mirror. And there are a lot of false loves in this world that are not biblical, and that's the number one thing is go back to like whether you're religious or not, look at what God said love is.

Right. Whether you believe in, in God or not, I mean, that's a clear guideline of what love should be, right? And all the stuff that is not part of love that you see in domestic violence and toxic relationships aren't included in that list. Right? I don't have the exact quote, but you know, everyone knows that the Bible says love is is patient.

It's kind. It does not envy or boast or brag. It does not get angry, right? Those are all things that we see in toxic relationships, so I think it's so important. Like you said, what I have found most interesting about your story is that. For many years you were with the, the father of your children. It did not marry him yet you married a different man who was not the father of your children in in a shorter relationship.

So what is kind of the thinking and thought process behind that? Yeah, it's funny, so funny story. We were gonna get married at one time and I went and got the dress and everything and. It, it was funny 'cause when I was shopping for the dress, I just was not very enthused. And I think everybody there kind of knew it.

And I was like, oh, the next time I get married I'm gonna get that dress. And my mom's like, well, you're getting married now. Like, what dress do you want? Because I really didn't wanna get married. I just figured we had to do it because we had kids together. And then it was I tried my dress on for my friend and it didn't fit and it fit me perfectly.

And she's like, are you sure you're not pregnant? And I was like, no. So I went and got a test, just, you know, she'd leave me alone about it and it was positive. So I took that as a sign, do not get married. And we got married all because we got pregnant again. But yeah, I mean, I didn't really wanna get married to him.

I knew it wasn't right. And the thing is, with my husband, the same thing happened right before we got married. I remember crying in the bathroom and God told me, he is like, if you get married, this is what your relationship's gonna be like. But I didn't listen. I was like, oh, we're just stressed out. We're moving, you know, we're going through all this stuff, you know, but, and there was a lot of other stuff going on in my life too, and I had to make a decision.

So, I mean, we got married, but yeah, I should have never, I, I should have listened to God and not have gotten married the second time either, but I don't know. Right. It, it's, it's done now, I guess. But yeah, that's why I didn't, we almost did get married, but I didn't want to get married really to him, I thought.

But my husband, it was different with him though, because he was like, I tell people, I'm like, he's a great boyfriend. So you don't see what it's gonna be like until after you're married. When you get married, that's when it all falls apart. So to me, I mean, I just figured it was stress and I should have known when I was crying on my bathroom floor to listen like this is probably during stressful situations, your partner should not be leading you to be crying on the bathroom floor.

Yeah. So for sure. And they say if you wear four socks to a wedding, you won't get cold feet. But you know, I think what's interesting is I wanna go back to. Again, whether you're a believer or not, I think this is part of the reason why divine design puts out not having children in sexual relationships before marriage.

Because a lot of people are getting married or trapped in toxic relationships because of children formed from wedlock. And so I think whether you believe in the Bible or not, like there was a reason that God told us that, and we're seeing it all across the world. There are are hundreds of thousands of relationships that the root cause of it was children.

And I don't say that to villainize children or having children, that is our reproductive right, is one of the greatest gifts God ever gave us was the ability to make many versions of us or not. So like ourselves. They turn out different sometimes, but you know Yeah. To create human life, you know, when, when conception happens, like light is a like, it is such a beautiful thing and I think that a lot of people like, I don't want to villainize it, but again, the reason.

That unification comes first, is to prevent that separation. And I think, you know, I don't say stay together just for the children because as someone whose parents should have separated and didn't because of the children, I have experienced what it's like in a lot of times, not all the times, but a lot of times it can be significantly worse for the children's mental health and their lifestyle to be with two people who should not be together than to be between separated homes, you know, because the mm-hmm.

You look at in, in the case of. Your children mirroring the angry behavior between you and their father, you know? Mm-hmm. If you had been living separate, yes. They would've been between two homes. Maybe the lifestyle wouldn't have been as lavish, but mentally and emotionally, the impact it would've had. You know, and this is something I've seen in many relationships, including, again, my parents' relationships.

So I think it's so important that we look at, you know, what is most beneficial for the children, not in what we think or what people say, which is staying together, but like, genuinely, is it better for the parents to be separate, you know? And sometimes it is, and you know, you can be separate parents without being the separated, if that makes sense.

You know, having the children separated, they can still have an individual relationship with the father and with the mother in a way that they still have both parents, but they're not experiencing the toxicity and danger of those parents together. Fast forwarding through all this, so how did you, what was.

What encouraged you or got you to leave the father of your children and then your husband? The father of my kids. I finally caught him cheating on me. So, makes it easier. Yeah. So yeah, I, I caught him cheating on me and we, I mean, we were trying to be,

I'm trying to think. I don't know if we were still kind of living with one another, but not really at the time, you know, for the kids or whatever, but mm-hmm. When I finally decided to end it and to like completely end it is because I was to the point where I just wanted to commit suicide 'cause I just couldn't go on about it anymore.

Mm-hmm. And when I, when I realized that that's how far it was then. And that's when I cried out to God for him to help me because I couldn't have done it by myself. 'cause I didn't have any support anybody to help me get out of the relationship. So. And how old were your children at that point? Let's see, my son was maybe a year old, so I think my oldest was eight.

And I have four kids, so eight, seven, I don't know. I'm down. I asked because you talked about, you know, the your husband abusing your children emotionally and verbally, and so I was just curious how much of their age range, you know, that he had an influence on? Yeah, my husband was in my son's life since he was like two or three.

Mm-hmm. 'cause we were friends for quite a while before we got together. And so, I mean, like, he's always been in his life. And that's the one that he, he kinda hit harder. Emotionally with. But I just think that's 'cause my girls are kind of strong-willed and will stand up for themselves. So between the father of your children and your husband, you talked about God, you know, saving you from the, bring his suicide and God also warning you about, you know, your upcoming marriage.

Did any healing occur during that time or did you really kind of just run to your husband you know, looking for comfort again? In between the two there was no healing. I didn't know I needed healing because again, I didn't understand that what I was living wasn't normal yet at that time I didn't realize that until like toward the end of my marriage or after my marriage.

And that's when I really realized like, oh, having toxic life. That's not normal for everybody. I thought it was just something that you see in a movie. It's like, you know, you have these happy like sitcoms. That's what I thought they were, I didn't think it really existed. Yeah. But I didn't do any healing in between.

I was still such a mess. Such a mess. And that's probably how my husband was able to, you know, ize me because people like that usually look for people who are, don't have boundaries, you know, don't really believe in themselves. So they need somebody there to pick them up and that's just what he did. While we were married, I actually read a book on boundaries and that's when I started realizing it.

God actually had me quit my job and for six months he took me through I call it Toxic one oh one, and he taught me like. What I've been living my whole life is toxicity. And then I started reading the book boundaries and then I learned what boundaries were, and I started setting those in my life. And that's when all the toxic people started leaving.

And my marriage really started falling even more apart. But I also learned how to manage my marriage. So it wasn't, wasn't so hostile, I guess. There was less fighting, screaming and yelling. And yeah, I've heard a lot that when you set boundaries is when you find out who your true friends are. And it's been really interesting in my life, some of the most simple boundaries, seeing how people react to them and how people try to test them, especially instead of respecting them.

Mm-hmm. And, you know, I think that's so important to, to get that healing. And you, you talked about different types of domestic violence. Now are these your own definitions or these are. Clinically trial definitions or how did you, what got you into researching domestic violence so much? So at the end of my marriage, I went to my church and they had kind of, we've been through like two rounds of marriage counseling and then us on our own.

And so they knew what our relationship was like and I went to them and told 'em like, Hey look, I need out. And they told me the only way they could help me is if there was physical abuse or sexual abuse going on. And I didn't know apparently what physical abuse was. 'cause I was like, no. And that's when I watched till later on I watched the show made by Netflix, which I highly suggest that you watch that It is, it's kind of triggering it. Bring, it will bring up a lot of feelings if you've been in domestic violence, but it explains it and shows you what it is. So well, that, that's when I really realized, oh, physical abuse is more than just somebody hating you. You know, like actual physical tact. It's slamming doors, punching walls, kicking walls, you know, that sort of thing.

Throwing things by you or at you. I never knew that. So after watching that show, I was like, oh my goodness, if I didn't know that, so many more people probably don't know that either. So that's when I went and just researched what all the, like, the six, the six most common ones are, and that it is actually domestic abuse.

It's not just a bad relationship, like domestic abuse is way more than just. Hitting and I didn't know that. A lot of us tend to think on extreme and just like you said, with rape, we think of, you know, most people think like a guy in an alleyway, you know? Mm-hmm. Taking advantage of a woman, you know, it's always the more extreme versions.

Yeah. And there's so much in between. You know, I've worked in domestic violence support before and you know, there are plenty of extremes. I've worked with women who had to mop up their own blood after getting beat, and women who went to jail for self-defense. But there's also a lot of that stuff like they've talked about, which is the door slamming, the hitting the walls, like people who have sometimes.

People will hit animals in the house as like a sign of like, you're next. You know, that's that. Mm-hmm. That's what the whole door slamming. And the the hitting other things is, it's that fear mongering that intimidation and the idea that you could be what gets hit next. So I, yeah, I agree. And so many people don't think of that.

So many people try to, and a lot of it is denial too, like we've talked about earlier. You, you want to use anything you can to say that you're not in that type of relationship. Because once you recognize that you are, then, you know, you have to get out or change it. And some people are afraid of that change, afraid of getting out, you know, they, they rather stay where they're comfortable.

So I, I really appreciate you, you know, spreading that awareness because I think a lot of people don't, a lot of people think of those extreme men. So at what point did you write your book? I started writing my book last March. And then I had it published in August, I believe. It was supposed to be published a lot faster, but it was also a healing journey for me.

I wrote the book and then I had to read it. 'cause after I wrote the book, the enemy started attacking me really hard and telling me, I bet that all these people are gonna come outta the woodwork and be angry at me, and I'm not gonna help nobody. And, you know, just anything and everything. So I'm like, what the heck is in this book?

'cause through wine a minute, I wasn't gonna finish the book. 'Cause I didn't wanna go into all of it. Like, I had the breakdown of the six types of domestic violence, but then I was putting my story in it for like examples. And I. Didn't wanna continue with that 'cause it was just too hard. But I sat down and I prayed about it and I was like, look, if you want me to finish this book, then you're gonna have to help me.

And it was finished in two hours, so I had no clue what was in it. Holy Spirit helped me write it. So that's what happened with that. And then so after I got it all written and I ordered the pre-book, you know, before you actually launch it, and I read it like 10 times 'cause I had to keep going over like, what is in this.

And it was definitely a healing journey. And then after I went through that period of time, then it was launched and it's been great ever since. And I've had so much positive feedback, not the negative that I thought I was gonna get. So yeah, when some I just, if there's something you really wanna talk about and you know, it's for a good cause.

Don't listen to all the negative in your head. Just keep pushing because you're gonna learn real quick that so many people are gonna be so thankful that you're doing what you're doing. So, a hundred percent. You know, I always say some of the best books in the world were never published because people just overthought it or just mm-hmm.

Were afraid to write it or didn't know what to say. But I love in, in the Bible, you know, there's so many people who try to get outta their job by saying, God, I don't know what to say. And he said, I'm gonna tell you what to say. Don't worry about it. You know? Mm-hmm. So I think, like you said, like when, when we have that calling, it's gonna be fulfilled.

We just have to say yes. You know, we don't even need to know what it is. We just gotta say yes. We just gotta be in alignment with God's will. And I think, honestly. If you're saying something negative about a book on domestic violence prevention awareness, obviously you're just an evil person, right? This is what kind of person are you?

But you know, I, I get it, you know, I get, I get hateful comments on my faith-based stuff on even, you know, suicide prevention stuff. And it's like, what kind of person are you? But the world is full of that evil, especially on the internet, most especially on the internet, you know, hiding behind their digital wall.

So I, I get that. What I wanna know is how long has it been since you left your now ex-husband in the time period between then in this book? We've been divorced a year and a half now, I think. Year. So this is all very recent then? Oh yeah. Very recent. So would you say you're not even fully healed yet?

Or where do you feel, oh, no, I'm, I'm sure I have a lot more healing to go through and doing the podcast, and I have guests come on my podcast and we'll get talking about something I'll like, oh I never thought about that. You know, I feel called out. Yeah. I'm like, okay. Huh. Let me think about that for a minute.

So that, that's been yeah, it's, it's been really interesting because there's still a lot of things that I just, I don't even think about healing in. And then, you know, people just come along and I feel like God puts you, puts people in your life for reasons and you know, a hundred percent. And he takes people outta your life for reasons too.

Mm-hmm. Conversations you didn't hear, things you didn't see. And as a podcast host, you know, I've had similar conversations where like, I, I remember, I remember distinctly I had a guest, yay. I don't know, I think actually I was on her show. She was on my show. We've done both, you know, so, and. She said something that just really stuck with me.

And it's a simple saying, and it's one that is very common. Apparently I just had happened to never hear it before, which was that kids are often seen, not heard and they want to be heard, not seen. And it just like, whew. Like my heart just dropped. And I was like, wow. That's, that's how I feel like I, you know, like there's just certain things that you come across that just sit with you.

Like I actually came across an Instagram reel. It was so simple, but it said, it's so hard to heal when your inner child wants love. You know, your teenage self wants revenge and your current self wants peace, or you know, something like that. And I was like, wow, that is how I feel. You know, I've got all three of those.

Yeah. Clashing right now. What's so interesting that I wanna get into is, so, so very recent divorce. Your children are now at an age where they're a bit older. It sounds like teenagers and young adults. Mm-hmm. How do they feel? Have they read your book? Do they know your story? Have you kind of kept it from some of them, you know, have, have they given you their input?

Like how is that relationship working? My son who's 15, he read my book before I published it and he's so sweet. So he read it and he is like, oh my gosh. And he gave me a hug and he was kind of crying and I was like, what's wrong? He's like, how are you? Okay mentally? And I never thought about it that way, you know, I'm just survival, you know, you just learn how to just keep surviving and, yeah.

So I think it was. Really enlightening to him to see my side of what I was going through. 'cause as a kid you only see your side. Right. And just hearing everything that happened. 'cause I'm pretty honest with my kids. I'll tell 'em, if they ask me anything, I'll tell 'em anything. I've always been an open book to them.

Always talk to them about things because I always wanted them to feel like they could come talk to me. 'cause I didn't feel like I could ever go talk to my mom. But I have gifted all of my kids a signed copy of my book and none of them have read it yet. They all say they're scared to read it. I don't know.

My grandma just said that she wanted a copy. At first she didn't wanna read it. She's like, I don't know if I can read it. But now she, she's in the middle of reading it now, so I don't know. I don't really, I. I know what my kids really think about what I'm doing. Honestly, I know they all think that it's good because they're supporting me, but on the other hand, they don't watch or listen to my podcast.

My one daughter will like all my reels and listen to those, but, you know, share everything, be supportive that way. But as far as listening right to everything and reading my book, they haven't done that well. And I think, you know, like especially with your grandma, it's like they reading it might put some responsibility and guilt onto them, like, mm-hmm why didn't I notice sooner?

Why didn't I, you know, I could have helped my mom or I could prevented this. Especially, you know, with, with your grandmother. Which actually brings me back to a good question I had earlier on, one in one ear and not the other, your mom, did you ever reconnect with her? Yeah. We've had a rough.

Mother-daughter relationship, I wanna say. It, it was pretty toxic the entire time growing up. And then we had a domestic violence issue when my kids were really little when I went to go visit her. This was before I got before I got married. 'cause he was with me at her house. After that. We didn't talk for six years.

But your mom was domestically violent towards you or the children or both? Toward me. We got in, yeah, we got into really bad domestic violence. Well, the police called it domestic violence. It was pretty bad. Girl fight sort of thing, I guess. So the best way of like explaining it, it, well from her perspective, from her perspective, did she expl was her side that she abandoned you because.

She cared about your state? Like she thought it was a better life for you to go with your, your aunt and uncle? Is that how she felt? Oh goodness. That kind of, oh yeah. I don't know. We've never talked about any of that. You never asked her, like, why did you just send me away? Well, I got taken away. The state took me away.

My mom was never supposed to get me back. From my understanding, she wasn't supposed to get me back unless she got married. And she never got married. So I really don't know how she ever got me back. I think she just, people lost track of me, maybe because I went to go live with family. And if you go live with family, then they don't really keep track of you.

I mean, it was a lot of years ago, so I mean, like, I don't know how she ever got me back. It was because of who she was associated with. You know, you mentioned earlier like the, the drugs and the prison and stuff that this, so the state declared her like a unsafe mother or they wanted you away from that?

I don't think they knew anything about that. They took me away because there was no food in my house. There was no electricity in my house. Oh, okay. I was always left home alone. I basically took care of myself. And the only reason why anybody, why I got taken away is 'cause one day I went downstairs to one of the other people's house and I was telling 'em how we didn't have food.

So they fed me and then the next day I was being taken away. So I'm guessing that's probably how that happened. Oh, okay. But my mom was always gone working. I just remember when they came to my house, they searched the house for drugs. They didn't find anything and there was no food and no electricity.

So clearly, you know, they took me away as they should have. It should have probably been taken away a long time before that. But I mean, I don't know. I don't think we ever really talked about it. Mm-hmm. So why did you reconnect with her? Like, did you reach out to her? Mm. I think she reached out to me and she had been trying to reach out to me for quite some time, but I didn't, I didn't know if I wanted to go back down that road because I didn't think anything was gonna change with our relationship.

Mm. And it didn't, it started going back to the same way. I'm not sure what shifted or what changed, but now we're kind of cordial to one another, but we don't talk all the time. It's like once in a while she's not like in, in my life, like, we don't hang out. Mm-hmm. That sort of thing. I just feel like it's best for us to have the relationship how it is.

Have you forgiven her from a faith-based perspective? I'm asking have you been able to forgive her? Yeah, I forgave her. I mean, I look at it as she had her own things going on in life and I was just piece of her story. And once I realized that. I was just a piece of somebody else's story that that wasn't me and my story, then I can make my own.

And that was a big part of starting to heal instead of, do you think they'll send her a copy of your book or you're gonna leave that untouched? I mean, she wants a copy. She, I, I wasn't gonna send her one. I mean, I don't know. She's never really said anything about my book or my podcast and she's got to know 'cause my whole family knows 'cause they've asked me about it.

So I really, I don't know. Maybe she's already read it and I just don't know. I'm really not sure. Just interesting. But you mentioned the podcast a few times, which I was on check out that episode. But you know, I think that's also relatively new as well, correct? Yeah, I just started that. I think I did a few episodes in October just to get it up and going, starting it, and then I think I started doing one week episodes in November.

So it's been, it's very recent. Are you more than 10 episodes in Oh yeah. I have like, I think 20 or going on 20 or close to 20. So you've already surpassed half of podcasters 'cause half of all podcasts at start don't make it to 10 episodes. So you're, you're doing good. Really? Yeah. And it's only about, and that's when it started taking off.

I feel like after that. It takes about, they say about 20 episodes to figure out your rhythm and flow and get it well established. And then, you know, after that point, only about three to 4% make it to a hundred episodes. I think it's about, it changes at each month based on the industry report, but mm-hmm It's about 4% to make it to 103% to make it to 200.

And then from 200, 300 episodes onward the percentage kind of goes back up a little bit because people who make it that far tend to stay in or they just retire their show. But yeah. So you're already doing really good is all I was saying, you know, so. Well that's awesome. Yeah, because I'm like oblivious on this whole podcast thing.

I was like, how do you know when it's doing good? You know, I'm just doing it because I enjoy doing it one, and it's just about getting the word out there. So I don't really look at it as, you know, trying to be famous or anything. I say a statistical industry standard. You're doing good. Yeah. But for me, you know, my value of good is also, you know.

What's the impact it's having? So I say each episode, I tell God a, take it to whoever needs it whenever they need it. Mm-hmm. Whether I'm alive, dead, or whatever. Meet the person. You know, I, it's hard not to look at download numbers and listenership. Right. Especially when other people are posting their milestones.

But I know that I don't do it for millions of people. I do it for the people that need it. And I trust that God is gonna take that to them. And I, I think he does because it's so random sometimes. What episode will be listened to today? That was posted two years ago and no one's listened to it since it started.

And then suddenly there's trends like one of my most popular episodes gen Z, suicide Prevention by integrating faith in social media. Mm-hmm. Like every single day someone was listening to that episode for like six months. Died off. And then you know, this episode on modern working man class and masculinity and traditional values suddenly like for a month or two was every day.

Then it died. Like it's so, and I'm sure you'll see it as you continue podcasts. Like it's interesting and I, I believe you know that when I see that like random download, you know, like that's God, getting it to the right person at the right time. So I think that's the most important part. And, you know, guesting is, is a huge part as well.

So, so far you're doing good at, at guesting on, on this show. You know, that's important to, to reach other people too, you know, because I believe that God uses not only our shows, but every show that we're on, and also just our day-to-day conversations. I, I don't know if you bump into people at the stores and you're like, Hey, do you listen to podcasts?

I have a podcast, or, you know, but even those random encounters can, can change the life. So I think it's super important. Yeah, I've noticed too, it depends on what platform you're on. 'cause I just started, I just started posting on YouTube also, and it, it's so funny because the episodes that are getting more views on YouTube didn't hardly get any views on my Spotify.

So I thought that was kind of interesting. Yeah, it seems to be inverse a lot of times. It's interesting, it's, mm-hmm. The performance on YouTube is a whole different ball game, so to speak. It, you know, it's, podcasts aren't as successful on YouTube unless you're that big time celebrity. Or if you have an in-person recording session.

But sometimes you'll see like, like you mentioned, it has great performance on YouTube and then not on, you know, whatever other platform it is. Audio only side. And I think it's interesting, of course, seeing what YouTube shorts perform well based off the, the episode. But some shorts funnel back and some don't.

You know, it is like mm-hmm. It's just interesting. It's very interesting and it seems to be. That the episodes that I'm like, I'm super hyped for this episode. This is a really good title. It is like Floss. And it's like this other episode that I was like, eh, this seems like it's an all right episode will do great.

It is like always the opposite of what you predict. So yeah, try not to predict anything. I just throw the episode out there. Yeah. Eyes closed, ears closed, brain empty, you know? Yeah. Just let it do its own thing. Yeah. But as we continue to podcast, what is the future looking like for you? Like what are your plans to, as you continue to expand the podcast?

I don't really know. I really, the pod out of everything that I'm doing, podcast is the one thing that I really enjoy doing. Meeting new people, hearing other people's stories, it really humbles you and makes you look at life differently, hearing other people's stories. So I really enjoy that aspect.

And then. I don't know. I, I kind of wanna get my book out there more. It did just get into a library, so that's kind of cool. That's awesome. Like a local library or a digital library? No, like a local library. They only have one copy, but I thought it was kind of cool. My friend she used to work there, so she reached out to them to put it in there.

And they did? Yeah. It was a mine. Lucky. Yes. My friend used to take copies of my book and put them in Goodwills or thrift stores and be like, look how trash your book is. No. He used to Frank be like, he would put it in, like, he would, we would go to like Ollie's or Goodwill or like, you know, some, some of, for the book there.

That's funny. But all in all in good humor. Yeah. She watched one of my podcast, podcast, podcast episodes. Teacher of Mr. Whiskey. Yeah. Yeah. Kidding. She watched which one? It was Tiffany, I don't remember what the title of the. Podcast was, but she wrote a book and her book talks about how to bring up to the person who's in the toxic relationship that they're in a toxic relationship.

And my book talks about identifying, you know, that you're in one and what to do after. And so she, she listened to that and she got both those books in the library. So that's kind of cool. That's amazing that other guests, I might have to reach out to them because I think one of the hardest things is like, I don't even know if it's possible sometimes, you know, like I was in so many toxic relationships and I had all these guys telling me they were toxic.

Like, Hey you shouldn't let women hit you. You shouldn't let women use you like this, or you shouldn't let women do that or that, or vice versa if you're woman, and you know, but when you've got, I've been accused of wearing horse blinders. I've been accused of wearing rose tinted goggles. Glasses, sunglasses, steampunk goggles.

Yeah. I've tried them all on same color. You know, I've been told I like to ignore red flags that the color line uhhuh, you know, I, well, I used to joke the more red flags, the merrier, but, you know, I was in a couple toxic relationships and like people will try to tell me, it's like, it's really hard to break through that to that person because they have an extreme bias, you know?

Mm-hmm. They have a love bias. They have the fear bias, you know, so there's so many things that you have to, you know, really like how to communicate to them. I think that's a really vital book. And, you know, I think for, for your book as well, you know, like, am I in a toxic relationship? If no one's helping you, how do you figure that out for yourself?

You know, especially if you're suspicious of it. But I wanna get back to speaking of support and communication. We mentioned God a few times. You talked about him saving you, you talked about you not listening to him at times. Mm-hmm. What is that relationship like now and how has that really impacted your journey?

My relationship with God right now is kind of weird. I would say after my divorce I felt lost. Like I, yeah, and I think a lot of that was just because I went through a divorce, so I was hard on myself about it because, you know, you're not supposed to get a divorce 'cause it's a Christian thing to do.

You're supposed to stay in the marriage forever. Even though God's the one who told me to get out, like one day he literally said, get out before it's too late. And I didn't know what that meant, but I listened and later on I found out what that meant. And I'm glad I did listen. But I, I really don't, and I've been struggling with this and be completely honest on where I'm at with my faith.

Like, I love God. I know he loves me. I just, I don't know where. Anything stands. I know I'm doing what he wants me to do. I know he is taking care of me because I took a huge pay cut in another job and my bills were being paid and there was still money in the account. And I don't know how that was to be so, it has to be him, you know, taking care of me.

But I don't know. I, I sit down, I read my Bible every now and then, but my relationship with him isn't like it used to be. And I think I struggle with, I want the closeness. 'cause at the beginning of my marriage, like my relationship with God was so strong, it was everything to me. And I feel I just want that back, but I don't know how to get there or if I ever will be.

And I struggle with that. And then I also struggle with going to church because I've been church for so much. Yeah. In the last few years. That is just. I just get to the point where like, I don't even wanna go to church, but then I know you're supposed to go to church too. You know, just all these things.

And I know a lot of it is just what you're taught but it's, it is just in a weird spot. I know he loves me. I know, you know, I love him and I pray, I read my Bible, but I just still feel like there's something missing. Hmm. Okay, I get that a hundred percent. I definitely can relate to that. Have been there before and, and there oftentimes as well.

So I, I think it's something very relatable to a lot of people listening right now. You know that, especially if you've felt closeness before and, and you don't feel it now and you're trying to achieve that again. Mm-hmm. And I think part of it, you know, I understand that church hurt, you know, I've had a lot of episodes on that.

A lot of parents and church leaders, they tell, they don't teach and, you know, it becomes routine and becomes something. But I always say we can't let people who misrepresent God, you know, this is where our relationship with him, we have to look at how he represents himself and, and that's by reading the scripture, which unfortunately a lot of people have never read, especially people who are church hurt and I mm-hmm.

I think that's really important. I'd love for you to share a quote of scripture with us from your heart right now. If you had to put forward a Bible quote, what would that be? Oh my goodness. I don't know. Versus by heart, if I'm gonna be honest. You can, you can. As close as you can get. I'll, I'll help you off.

I can. Oh my goodness. I'm not gonna be able to answer this question. I don't, I just had this conversation with a friend yesterday actually about memorizing scripture and, and I was telling him, I was like, I can tell you stories. I can tell you like important things that I've learned, but I could not tell you where it was at or what verse it is.

And I mean, it just basically comes down to like,

this makes, I always feel so bad that I cannot memorize scripture, but just reading the Bible, like I know he loves me and I know he is there for me. He's there, you know, to, you just had to ask me that question here. Of course. I, I asked to have every faith-based individual on the show. 'cause I think it's so important.

You know, I've been keeping track of what quotes are said, and there's a lot of overlaps, a lot of common ones. So I really live in thrill for the, when someone says a quote, I'm like, whoa, no one's ever said that before. That's awesome. Yeah, no, I, I don't, and especially hearing how people implement it in their life, you know?

Mm-hmm. I think it's super awesome. No, I don't have, I don't have quotes or scripture, sorry. But I, somebody was on my podcast the other day and they said that when they were, when they left their relationship, but they went through, and you might be able to help me with this 'cause it's like Corinthians where it tells, it breaks down what love is.

Is it first Corinthians? Is that what it is? Was it the one I referenced earlier where I said, love is kind, love is patient, love is kind. Yeah. And it goes through all of those. Okay. So I did the same thing. When I was going through God teaching me what love was. So that was really important for a very long time in my healing journey.

So, I mean, I guess if I have to say one thing that helped me through my healing journey, it was that, 'cause I had to keep going back and reminding myself like what love was because I kept falling in to talking to other people and it started being the same cycle. And when I would realize what it was, I would go back to that.

Right, and through the power of digital evangelism, I've pulled it up here. It's First Corinthians chapter 13 verses four through eight. Love is patient. Love is kind. It does not envy. It does not boast. It is not proud. It does not dishonor others. It is not self-seeking. It is not easily angered. It keeps no record of wrongs.

Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails. But where there are prophecies they will cease. Where there are tongues, they will be stilled. Where there is knowledge, it will pass away and I think that is very beautiful.

You know, again, like we mentioned in the beginning of the episode, you know, it lists out whether you're religious or not, like. Boasting pride, dishonoring, self-seeking anger, record of wrong keeping, right? Those, whether you're religious or not, you shouldn't want those in your relationship. And actually, I just shared the other day in my most recent episode on forgiveness, a quote that, you know, basically said that it's from Proverbs and whoever would, you know, foster love covers offenses, right?

But he who repeats the matter would separate close friends and talks about, you know, love and forgiveness are part of one another. And, you know, forgiveness leads to more love. But when you continually bring up a record of wrongs, it breaks down that love. Especially I mentioned, if you continually bring up a record of wrongs with no solution on how to move forward, you know, hey, you know, I'm gonna keep bringing up this thing you did, but I'm not gonna give you a solution on how we can forget this, how we can move forward.

So I, I think that's really important. You know, when you. Keep a record of wrong, you should bring with it solutions. I mean, that way you can move forward. Otherwise you just repeat the matter and you just separate that love. I, I think that's really important and I have tried to use it as an anchor in all my relationships to know like, is this godly love or worldly love?

You know, by matching it against that and you know. It's not to say that the first sign of any of those that the love is not there. Right. Because we live in a fallen world. Yeah. We are field woo sin and we all make mistakes. You know, it's the consistent, continual, non repentance of those sins in your relationship that you should be looking out for, you know?

Don't leave the minute someone gets angry for the first time. Right. But if it's a continuous, like you talked about every day, being in a household of anger and just hate, you know, that's, that's not love. And you know, I think there's a lot of love nowadays that is based on pride and, and bragging and envy and plots and schemes.

So I think it's so important that we continually are assess our love to that quote. So thank you for bringing up that quote. We found it, you know, together. Right. You know, when God puts something in our heart, we will find a way to share it. So definitely check that out. But you know, you mentioned the podcast is gonna continue to expand.

Your book is going around right now. And so we're gonna have the links in description below for people to check that out. I want to thank you for your time today and for being vulnerable and sharing your story. I know that it is not easy, but I know that you want to be silent, no longer shout out to your mm-hmm.

Podcast. So what would you say, again, just to all the people who are in silence because of fear, because of love, but of, of a fear, of change, of fear, of sharing their story, a fear of facing their own feelings. What would you say to them? Like, why is it so important that they're not silent any longer? Well, a lot of it, the biggest thing is, is 'cause you're not alone in your story is gonna resonate to somebody else, and that's gonna give them the hope that they need.

Yeah. And it'll help heal yourself as well. Mm-hmm. You know, it's for both you and others. So I appreciate you sharing your story. You know, we'll have you back on the show in the future when you. Have a ton more episodes and a ton more scripture quotes and already, but I really appreciate what you do.

I, I am curious. I might have to, once your children are old enough, I might have to interview them after they read your book and listen to your show and find out what they truly think. But, you know, thank you for coming on the show today for your time. Thank you.