Why Trauma Breaks Faith And How God Restores It With Dr. Larry Brant

Today, I sit down with Larry Brant, a U.S. Navy chaplain, former civilian pastor, and author of Restoring the Broken, to explore the intersection of faith, mental health, and moral injury within the military and first responder communities. Dr. Brant shares his remarkable journey from decades of church ministry to answering God’s call to military chaplaincy at age 45, including his transformation through discipline, education, and service.

In this episode, we explore how moral injury differs from PTSD and why guilt, shame, and ethical conflict often cause service members to withdraw from faith, family, and community. Dr. Brant explains how moral injury convinces individuals they are unforgivable or beyond restoration, leading to isolation, addiction, and suicidal ideation. We also discuss his extensive experience in suicide prevention, including the LivingWorks SafeTALK and ASIST programs, and how listening, presence, and proper intervention can save lives.

We also examine how faith-based approaches can help restore those broken by trauma, particularly when paired with community and compassionate leadership. Dr. Brant shares why God is a God of restoration, how Scripture speaks directly to guilt and despair, and why churches must better understand moral injury to serve those already sitting in their pews. 

https://restoring-the-broken.com/

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Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode, a couple of nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and at one point during my Navy career, for lack of better words, I'll say temporary job, you know, careers for the more long term. But while I was there, I envisioned possibly cross rating to become a chaplain.

Cross rating as a nuclear operator is very difficult. If not at all, you know, just completely impossible. And I actually knew a couple of sailors who were trying to get transferred to the Space Force to try and make, you know, hoping, hoping they were gonna make nuclear spaceships and, and get out of the Navy, but it doesn't happen.

So unfortunately I didn't get to do that. For those of you who don't know what a chaplain is, uh, I'd like to call it a military priest, is the simplest way to put it forward. But essentially they work as counselors. They can be associated with a certain denomination, but they are, a lot of them are qualified to talk to different people of all different religions.

Uh, just for counseling. One of the things that they, well, I'll let the actual traveling break down all the responsibilities and stuff. Uh, but just to give you a little. Insight into what we're gonna be talking about today. Dr. Larry Brat is here with us to discuss his time serving both outside of the military in in the military.

We're gonna get into mental health, the faith, and the combination of both, especially with military men and women. Dr. Larry Brat, so great to have you here, and could you please tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. And, uh, thank you for, uh, letting me on your podcast. I feel I, I'm honored, uh, a little bit about myself.

Uh, I'm older than dirt, uh, but, uh, that's okay. Um, I, uh, grew up in the Midwest, uh, originally from the St. Louis area and. Uh, went to college in a small college in western Kentucky called Murray State University, where I met my wife Tammy. We were college sweethearts and got married as soon as I graduated and we'll, we'll celebrate 40 years in June.

Uh. And so I was a music major there, felt God was calling me to be a, uh, worship pastor at the time. And even, uh, after graduating, went to Southern Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky and got my master's in church music, and then just started on a road of being minister of music and dot, dot, dot, whatever else the church needed for the next 25 years.

And then, uh, in 2002, found myself at a church in Lincoln, Nebraska. Um. Was there. And, uh, one Sunday after church, uh, a couple of, uh, firefighters and police officers came up to me. They were church members, so I wasn't scared. Um, but they came up to me and they, they said, you know. We've got a volunteer chaplain Corps here in the city of Lincoln.

We think you really have a good temperament for that. Would you consider serving with them? So I checked with the senior pastor. He was fine with it. And so, uh, I started down that road of being a police and fire chaplain and really enjoyed the ministry. Really enjoyed working with the first responders.

Uh, helping people sometimes on their worst day ever, uh, trying to make, uh, their life a little better in the midst of that chaos and confusion. Um, and, and kind of rose through the ranks and ended up leading the ministry for the city and, which was kind of cool. And I had about 25 volunteer chaplains that I supervised.

Uh. And it, it was neat 'cause I could walk into the office of the police chief, walk into the office of the fire chief, walk into the office of the mayor of the city and just say, how you doing? How can I pray for you? Uh, you know, what, what can I do to make your day a little bit better? Uh, and they really appreciated that.

And, and there was a great appreciation for the Chaplain Corps there in Lincoln, but God kind of used that. To get my mind ready for the next thing he was calling me to. And that was, uh, navy chaplaincy. So, uh, in 2007, uh, I found out that my denomination was going to have this big. Training conference in Hawaii, and it was the exact same week my wife had off from work in the school system.

'cause at that time she had, she was a sign language interpreter for the public school system. So I just went to her and I just said, honey, it is of God that we are going to this conference in Hawaii on the one week you have off in the fall. She wasn't very hard to talk into it because it Right, you know, Hawaii.

Uh, so we went and, and, uh, you know, we, we had a stop over in Oahu and got to see Pearl Harbor and then we went on to the conference, which was on the island of Kauai, which is very beautiful. And while we were there, um. I was wanting to kind of get more chaplaincy skills as a law enforcement chaplain. Uh, and my wife wanted to, to support me and plus, you know, do a little sightseeing on the side.

But then as we were there and we were talking to the military chaplains that were at this conference, uh, I kind of felt a, a tug from God, um, that this was what he wanted me to do. And like Moses at the burning bush, uh, I tried to tell God all the reasons why he was wrong, right? Uh, and so, you know, with every reason I came up with it seemed like an hour later he knocked it down.

So first I said, well, God, uh, I'm already over the age that they want you to be, which was, you know, uh, at that time. To come into the Navy as an officer. Um, and the very next session they started talking about how short they were on chaplains and how they're giving out age waivers, uh, for people coming in right.

Then the next thing was I was like, God, I don't have the right degree. At that point in time, I had two master's degrees. I had a master of church music, which was, you know, what got me the job as a worship pastor. And then I also had a, a master's in, in ministry leadership and. So again, next session, they start talking.

Now keep in mind, this was 2007, next session, they're talking, um, about all these brand new online seminaries that are getting accredited, that the military is taking as, as good to go if you have a degree from them. So I was like, boom, there's the second one. And, uh. Then the third one I thought I really had him on the third one was, okay, God, I'm, I'm a pretty big boy.

'cause at that point in time, I weighed over 300 pounds. Wow. And God said there's this thing called diet and exercise. Right. So, so, uh, I said, okay, God, I'll do what you want me to do. But I really would like for you to tell my wife 'cause I'm terrified to do that, you know? Yes. Yes ma'am. This, this poor woman has supported me for over 20 years at that point.

And, uh. Here I was going to just totally rock her world and, and shake everything up. Fruit basket upset. So we're walking back to the room that night. And have you ever seen those movies where you see a hallway and it just seems to kind of extend out and go on? Yes. Yes. Ever. That's kind of what happened to me that night.

It, I didn't think. I thought that walk to the room was the longest walk I'd ever had in my life, and I was just absolutely dreading telling this poor woman how God was gonna just rock everything for us. We get to the room and I close the door, turn around, and she puts her finger in my face and says, I think God's calling you to military chaplaincy. And I thought, well, if I ever needed a confirmation that was sure it, and he really did tell her. So that night we, we sat up for a long time. We talked about what all this would mean and what I would have to do. Uh, go back to school, you know, start eating better, working out, um. And, you know, if nothing else, I was gonna have another degree and I would be living a healthier lifestyle.

Um, and so then the next day we went to the folks in our denomination, kind of told them, uh, what we were thinking and how we felt God was calling us. And, and I would say they were cautiously optimistic. You know, they would say, you, you know, you do have an uphill battle. Uh. If this is God's will, it's gonna get done.

And so, uh, we came back home, um, and, uh, I enrolled in an online seminary, or actually the seminary is brick and mortar, but they have an online portion. And it was, uh, Luther Rice Seminary just outside of Atlanta, Georgia. And, uh, then I joined the y and uh. Then my wife for Christmas that year got me hours with a personal trainer or as I like to say, uh, she paid a 22-year-old to try to kill me because the beginning, that sure is what it felt like.

But I, I, I went, sure. I, I downloaded, uh, you know, what the regulations were, what the height, weight. Was and what I would have to do for the physical fitness test. And I went to this young man and I said, this is what I, I wanna get to. And he didn't laugh at me. He didn't make fun of me. He didn't joke. Uh, but God bless him.

He sat down and he figured out a program to get me there. And he said, if you, if you work it, you're gonna get there. And so for the next year and a half, I worked it. And so it took me a, a year and a half, uh, because some of my credits from the previous masters transferred over. And so in a year and a half I had, uh, my Master of Divinity and I had lost 110 pounds.

Wow. And, uh, was, uh, as you well know, uh, then going to a MEP station surrounded by a bunch of 17 year olds in my under doing the duck walk across the floor. And how old were you when all this was happening? I was 45. 45 I think. Yeah. I'm trying to think of my bootcamp. We had a few guys who were a little more advanced in years, but I think you set the record for people.

I know. I think that is the oldest, uh, number I have heard in terms of joining the military. That's, it's extremely impressive. I actually know a few more who were older. Uh, but I'm, I'm happy with that. But, uh, yeah, so I remember being at the MEP station and I'm sitting there in my underwear and this 17-year-old kid goes, are you here with your 17-year-old?

And I said, I am the 17-year-old. Right, right. That's good. Well, uh, I got, I got, had to get an eye waiver for a condition I had with my eyes. Uh, and had to get that age waiver. Uh, and then, uh, uh, came in, went to officer development school, which was specifically for staff officers, like doctors, lawyers, nurses, chaplains, that kind of thing.

And then, uh. The first thing they did was send me to the Marines, uh, 'cause the detailer said, and if you don't know what the detailer is, folks, the detailer is the guy who sends you to your assignments. And the detailer told me, he said, I'm gonna send you to the Marines because if I send you to 'em any older, they'll kill you.

Uh, and uh uh, so I went to Second Marine Division at Camp Legere, North Carolina. Mm. A year later, I was in a fire hole in Afghanistan with third Battalion eighth Marines, uh, which is an infantry battalion. And, um, that was, uh, that was a life changing experience. And so for the next 16 years, um. I bounced back and forth between Navy Marine Corps and Coast Guard.

'cause Coast Guard uses Navy chaplains. And, uh, have had terrific experiences. Met, met wonderful people. Um, got to further my education. Um, got to get the credentials to be able to work in a hospital. Uh, so, uh, I was command chaplain for a naval hospital as one of my tours. Um, and, uh, that was a wonderful experience.

And now I am, uh, uh. Here in 29 Palms, California in the middle of the wonderful Mojave Desert. Um, and, uh, this is, this is where I'll be rounding up. I turned 62 this summer, so I have to get out at 62. And, uh, but, uh, I'm not sad. Um, it, it's. It's been a, a great experience. I've learned so much about myself and about ministry.

Met wonderful people. Uh, got to circle the globe twice and been to a lot of really neat countries and got my, uh, got another master's degrees for a total of four and uh, got a doctorate all on the dime of the Navy, so you can't complain about that. Right. I mean that's, ugh, that's so much schooling, you know?

I can't imagine. But I was gonna ask, because you are over halfway to the 20 year mark, but because of your, uh, aging out, for lack of better words, do you still get the benefits or how does that work in terms of like, because they are preventing you from doing the 20 years, so are they responsible for that, if that makes sense.

Yeah, well, when I came in at 45, I had to sign a paper saying, I understand that I may or may not get 20 years. Okay. Uh, and then at one point, uh, I was all but promised that I would get that. But then in the fall of 24, and the, and the Navy Chaplain Corps was very supportive of me getting an age waiver. Uh, but then in the fall of 2024, uh.

Unfortunately, big Navy put in a policy that pretty much shut down the age waivers, so I have to get out at 17 years, so I get veterans benefits and that's about it. Right. And to me it's, it should be, and I do the blended retirement system, so I do have a retirement account that, okay, whenever I get a job next, I can move that money into that retirement account.

Right. I just don't get a pension. Mm. Yeah, that's really unfortunate. I think, you know, the age waiver should be dependent on job, right? Because certain jobs, yes, if you approach a certain age, you should not be doing it anymore. But chaplain, I mean, I don't think, not not to detract from what you do, right?

But I think that the physical demand or the demands that would be relayed to age or, or not there, right As, as long as you get a medical assessment and they say, Hey, he's good to go. So I think that's. I do agree silly, for lack of better word, silly. Especially since we are short chaplains. So my exit right makes that that short, that short of chaplains, a hundred percent.

Um. It's not that I can't do the phy. I got a, I got an outstanding on my last physical fitness test. So, um, and even at my age, I still have to step on a scale. I still have to, uh, do a physical fitness test, all of that past no problem. It's just simply I have to get out because of a number behind that.

Just the red tape? Yep. It's just the red tape. Just the red tape. Yeah. Uh, but, uh. It is what it is. So what I'm gonna take it as is that God's got something next in store and I need to trust him on that. Right. And, you know, God's plans aside. Uh, you know, I hate to say that, but what are you personally thinking and, and envisioning right now in terms of retirement or of going back into, uh, you know, non-military ministry?

What is that looking like? Well, I mean, uh, you know. Uh, I'm applying to the VA as a chaplain. Oh, okay. But there's not a lot of positions open because of all of the budget cuts. But I'm also applying, uh, to some church ministries, to some Parachurch ministries, to some hospitals, um, and just, uh, being open to what God has in store For sure.

And I know that you talked about. Earlier getting the, to become a worship pastor. You got the ministry music degree and everything, which I'm not too familiar with. Were you looking more specifically to do, uh, worship in music than compared to preaching? Or did you want to do preaching as well? Like how does that work?

It's interesting because when I first got into ministry, I was looking at doing, uh, leading worship. Working with youth, working with education, uh, but now in my time, uh, as being a chaplain, uh, because I've, I've worked very hard to develop my preaching skills, my leadership skills, my bible study skills, um, I'm looking at something more that, that, that uses that in addition to my pastoral care abilities.

Hmm. Okay. And you know, so I've talked to Navy chaplains before when I was serving. We had some Bible studies together and stuff, so I spent a little time around them as well as around individuals who were also seeing them. So I'm definitely curious from your perspective, especially with you having so many years of service, a lot of people during their time in the military lose their faith.

Uh, people refer to as moral injury. It's a leading cause behind veteran suicide, right? People lose the faith because of the heart. Like people in their day-to-day lives, face hardships that cause 'em to have doubt and to question their faith so much more in the military. So. That aside, besides losing the faith because of hardship, what would you say was like the biggest thing among the people who were coming to see you, whether that was something they needed or something that was commonly occurring that was just happening to them?

Like what were some of the patterns, if any, that you noticed? Well, when we look at moral injury, the, you know, we have PTSD, which is a traumatic, a traumatic event that's happens to you. You know, it's, it's from an outside agency. That happens to you and traumatizes you. Moral injury is, uh, uh, a different side of the coin.

Moral injury is when we do something sometimes under the orders of somebody in authority over us, or we fail to prevent something that just goes against everything we believe in, uh, morally. Ethically, especially spiritually, so much so that it breaks us, like PTSD does to the person who experiences that kind of trauma.

And, um, we, that, that individual just gets eaten up with guilt, with shame. Uh, they feel like from that point forward, from the time that they, they did that action, they feel like, um. They're unlovable, they're unforgivable, even to the point where they feel like they're infected with evil. Hmm. Uh, and, and what we see folks like that is that they will step back from everything.

They will step back from their faith. They will step back from their family. They will step back from their friends for two reasons. Number one. Um. The fewer people you're around, the fewer people that can hurt you or, uh, will realize you're evil, for lack of a better term. Secondly, uh, they're concerned that what has infected them will rub off on the people that they love.

So they will isolate themselves. And quite often when they do that, they self-medicate with alcohol or drugs. Right. And uh, and then as you said, I, I think that's a good portion of the suicides in the veterans and the first responders that we see and even in our, our medical providers. 'cause you look at.

Um, when I was going through the program to be able to work in a hospital, um, I was the, uh, ICU chaplain at, uh, Naval Hospital, San Diego. You know what? We informally call Balboa in the Navy. Um, I was the ICU chaplain there during the height of COVID. Oh, okay. And at no fault to the staff. We were losing an average of a patient a day.

And not only was that devastating to the families of the patients, and sometimes we would lose a husband one month and the wife the next month. Um, and then the, the family is just reeling. Uh, but then also you had the healthcare providers who were like. This isn't what I signed up for. I signed up to heal people and I'm, I'm absolutely helpless in preventing this, uh, this virus from killing these people.

And what good am I? And there was a lot, not just at. Not just at that hospital, but literally across the nation in healthcare. Uh, we had, uh, medical providers who were just really questioning themselves thinking that maybe they weren't worth anything as a doctor or nurse, uh, and really struggling after, after that happened.

And, um. W Chaplains really had to step up and help those people understand that, uh, what they're doing is they're having a normal reaction to an absolutely terrible situation. Right? Uh, and so, uh. And, and so working with these folks, trying to help them understand that there is a path back from this brokenness

when you were serving and still are, has everything you've seen and counseled with all these military members, has it brought you closer to God or has it brought about more seasons of doubt than when you were in the civilian world preaching. You know, um, it's actually strengthened my relationship with God.

Amen. Because, um, as, as I have grounded myself and made sure that I had good self-care, um, but then been able to work with these people to love on them, um. It's been amazing to see the response by so many of 'em. I mean, yes, a a few of them come to me and then they still go their own way, but a lot of people will come to me and, uh, we'll, I'll, we'll spend time together and I'll work with them and pray with them and, and.

They make very positive changes in their life and uh, and sometimes they, they come fully to God, sometimes they don't, but. Uh, it's been very positive to see, uh, the changes that has happened in so many of their lives and the influence that I've been able to have in the command, uh, in the commands I've been in and with some of the leadership that I've had the privilege to work with.

Uh, um, uh, I, I would say. I would say I'm, I'm less of a black and white person than I used to be. I've got a lot more gray area now. Mm. And what I mean by that is I think I'm much better in mercy and compassion than I used to be. Okay. Uh, I was on a church staff, I think I was, I think I was a little stiff, let's just say that.

Uh, and through, through working with these people over, over the last 16 years, um. I think God has really worked on my love and compassion on these folks, but I, I am definitely closer to God now than I was when I initially joined the Navy. I think I understand exactly what you're saying because, uh, I get, you know, my church buddies and my, you know, ministers I work, would tease me about being an Old Testament enthusiast and a little too, uh, divine judgment, and I need to be a little more Christ-like in my, uh, being compassionate and forgiving.

They say I, uh, I walk around with the Sodom Gamora hands too much, if that makes sense. You know, so, uh, I totally understand you there. I, I think, you know. I always share on the show that if you're struggling with your faith, hearing the testimonies of others and working with others is amazing because, like you said, you're seeing the impact God is having in your lives.

You're seeing people who were at rock bottom go to a place of recovery. And you know, I recommend if you, if you don't have anyone in your life, you could always look up online, you know, testimonies. There are thousands and thousands of videos and stories. But for me the best is if you find people in your local community, people you personally know, hearing how God is working their life in big ways and small ways.

Even just the smallest ways. You know, there are so many. Uh, originally a a couple years ago I wanted to write a book about how all the micro blessings add up, but those are the ones we ignore. And there are so many ways throughout the day that God blesses us and shows us favor that we just take for granted.

And so I think hearing testimonies is always amazing, seeing them. You know, and I, that's always helped me when my faith is low. It's like I don't see God working in my life, but I see the way he's working in all the lives of people around me. And so now with that in mind, I gotta take a fresh look at my life and look at it again.

So I think there is a huge reinforcement there. I have to ask because of the, you know, my ship set, the record for suicides. We had a lot, uh, during new school there was about one to three attempts a month. People I know personally, I actually stopped several suicides myself. So there's a huge thing in the military and you know, there's a lot of different conflicting reports about the numbers.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the number is. It's every day we're losing veteran or veterans. And this is also active duty members as well. Mm-hmm. Has anyone you've ever counseled during your time of being a chaplain ended up committing suicide? And if so, how did that affect your relationship with God and your faith?

Uh, I've been extremely fortunate in that no one that I have counseled has suicided, although I have counseled many, many people who were having suicide ideations or, um, actually had a plan, um, to, to do something right. Um, and so, uh, again, one of the things that I was very blessed with was, um. I, I took a training, uh, in the Navy.

Uh, it's, it's available to the civilian population as well. Uh, but in the Navy it's called, uh, it's by a company called Living Works, which is based out of, uh, Calgary. Can Alberta, Canada. Mm. And it's, they have two versions. They've got one called Assist and one called Safe Talk. And you know, everybody in the Navy has to take the suicide, general military training, right?

That just kind of gives you the basic of, of, of suicide, you know, what happens, how to, how to, how to kind of figure out who might be doing it. And so what. Safe Talk does. Safe Talk is a four hour training where we actually train you, uh, better in observation techniques, how to approach someone, how to open a conversation with someone that you think might be having thoughts of suicide, not freaking out if they give you the affirmative, and then how to get them to, with their permission, how to get them to a higher level of care so that they get the help that they need.

And then, um, what assist is. And, um, uh, I've be, been able to become a master facilitator in this. I've been doing it for 13 years now. Assist is where we actually teach you how in a two day workshop we teach you how to do, uh, an actual suicide intervention. From start to finish, how to do it. Um, and, and it's the best program I've seen out there.

There are other programs out there as well, but it's the best one that I've seen. And, uh, I've done it. Uh, and they, the model that they use is called the PAL Model Pathway for Assisting Life. And, uh, I've done it face to face. I've done it over the phone. I've even done it over texting with someone who was texting with me.

Wow. You know, I, there's been a couple of instances where the person broke off contact with me and we had to call 9 1 1. Uh, so probably had we not done that, they may have suicided. Uh, but by and large, I'll be honest with you, in about 80% of the situations, uh, which is a big part of Safe Talk and Assist is just listening to the person's story, right.

So often they've never told anyone what has happened to 'em. They've never told anyone how they're feeling because that fear of rejection is very, very real. And so a lot of times when that person gets all of that off of their chest and maybe for the first time they hear it out loud, uh, they almost talk themselves out of suicide.

Hmm. We still have to follow the appropriate protocols and, and make sure that they get seen and everything out right, but with, you know, with the assist from start to finish, you listen to the person, you help them find a reason to stay safe. And that has to come from them. You can't suggest it, uh, but you can just, when you hear it, you build on it, and then you begin to work with that individual to build a safety plan so that when they go to that next higher level of care, they're calm.

They've got a, a good demeanor. They're willing to go by the safety plan that you've worked out. That could mean the difference between becoming an outpatient for care or being sent to a 72 hour hold where they're, you know, poked and prodded at everything else. Mm-hmm. And then possibly extended to 30 days.

So, uh, I, I've seen that make a huge difference in some people's lives. On top of these programs that you've mentioned, do you personally integrate the faith into your suicide prevention and intervention? And if so, what parts of the scripture have you found are extremely helpful to do so? Uh, when the, when the person's willing to talk about faith.

Absolutely. When I'm doing the intervention itself, I pretty much just stick to the intervention. Then once we have done the, um. The safety plan. Um, it, you know, if the person indicates that they want to talk some more about faith mm, that then definitely I am all about it and we talk faith. Right. You know, a, a big thing, especially when they feel so isolated, is first Peter five seven, which says, cast your cares on me for I care for you.

And I say, you know, God is literally begging. For you to lay what is upsetting you, what is bothering you at his feet, because he doesn't want you to shoulder it all by yourself. It amazes. What? It's just amazing to me, uh, when a person, you mean God really wants me to dump all my stuff on him? And I'm like, yes, he does.

And, and then I always encourage him, like what you said, find a safe place that is local where you can share with people, uh, the ups and downs of your life, um, and build a bond with them. Uh, that I think building that circle of community is, is huge in a person feeling safe, a person being able to vent what's on their heart in a safe place so that they don't feel judged, but also that they can feel loved and supported by those individuals.

Um. And like you said, some, you know, if, if it's not there in the local community, perhaps they can find a circle of veterans online where they might be able to do that. Um, with, with, uh, the moral injury, uh, one thing that we do here at 29 Palms is, uh, we have a group, uh, that meets, uh, for eight weeks at a time.

Then we'll start a new group. But, uh, if they're diagnosed with PTSD or if we, we strongly think that they may have moral injury, we invite them to this group. It remains a small group, uh, less than 10. Um, and we go through this eight week course, and what we do is we use faith to help mitigate the symptoms of PTSD and moral injury.

And it was actually written by a clinical psychiatrist and a va cha, uh, a clinical psychiatrist with the va and a VA chaplain who's also an army reserve chaplain. And it's, it's wonderful material and it's an eight week course. There's some, we give, we give them a workbook and homework every week that they have to complete.

Um, and then. Once they begin sharing their stories with one another, that group becomes very close. But another thing happens like when you're in community and in a group like this, you realize you're not by yourself, right? The way you feel. You know sometimes when you're all by yourself and you feel alone rejected, you feel.

Like nobody can feel like you do. Then you get in with a group of like folks and you realize, I'm not by myself, I'm not alone. I, I, I can share in a safe way and God really does love me. And, and we help them kind of walk that back. And what I'm trying to do now. Is to help the church do that. That same thing, because so many times we have these morally injured folks in our churches.

Right. But because the ministry leadership doesn't really understand what moral injury is, they mistake it for something else. Mm. And, and then in the church, uh, because they mistake it for somebody for something else, there really isn't a safe place for these individuals to be able to share their stories and then be able to start on that path back to restoration, right?

So, uh, that's, that's why, uh, you know, you mentioned writing a book. I've got a book, uh, coming out on February 3rd. It's called Restoring the Broken. It actually comes out of my doctoral dissertation, but what it's about is just educate, you know, in plain spoken language, nothing fancy, plain spoken language.

Uh, what is moral injury, why the church should care, and what the church can do about it. Is this book for church leaders mainly, or is this something that everyone would benefit from in, in something that they should pass on to their ministry or the, uh, wherever their faith-based community is? I, you know, of course I'm, I'm prejudice, I wrote it, but, uh, even though the book says it's for ministry leaders, um.

I've, I've given some chapters to some friends of mine who are not ministry leaders, and what their response was was that I understood what's going on a whole lot better after reading this. Mm-hmm. Uh, so I think it's for anyone who wants to find out more about moral injury and how they can help someone, uh, begin that path of restoration.

And it sounds like it would be especially helpful for those of us who have a military spouse or you know, people who have been through trauma. Because again, it's not just when people hear to p the word PTSD because of the way it has been portrayed in, in, you know, our world. They mostly think of combat PTSD.

But PTSD exists way outside of combat. In fact, a fraction of the military is combat. Again, I always say. Huge respect for them. They, they are very important, but they are a small population. The military is a huge, huge, huge collection of different groups of people who have PTSD from a variety of factories, including outside of the military.

And the civilian world has a whole bunch of hardships that we face in our lives that are also traumatizing. So again, while we emphasize the military aspect, I do want everyone to know that this is something that anyone can experience, uh, in your life, in including. You yourself may have been going through this or gone through it, or are going through it and don't realize what it is.

A lot of people haven't even heard the words moral injury. So if it kind of spoke to you today, I'd highly encourage you to, you know, read up more on moral injury as well as, you know, the book. I know on your website you have a, a click to signup for as soon as it comes out, and it's right around the corner here too.

So, uh, perfect timing for, for podcast. It comes out on Tuesday, and if you get it on Tuesday, the Kindle version's 99 cents. Uh, and then on Wednesday the fourth, it goes back to the normal price, which is whatever my publisher said is, is I, I slipped. Uh, and then you can also order the, uh, paperback and the hardback versions.

Um, but, uh, um. I, I would encourage folks to get it. I'm, I'm not doing this to make money. What I'm doing this to do is to get the message out and to help the church, uh, recognize what is already inside their congregation. These hurting peoples that quite often through no fault of the, or the people zone, right, they just simply aren't educated on it.

And they're mistaking it for something else. And, and when you mistake it for something else, then you aren't able to help the person because you're not dealing with it in the appropriate way. A hundred percent. And I'm actually gonna borrow a question from, uh, minister I worked Johnny t he's the host of the Refuge Freedom Stories Podcasts.

Great guy doing amazing work in Canada through God helping ju juvenile delinquents recover and, and turn to the faith. He always asks a question on his podcast, and, uh, so I, I usually don't ask it, but I, I felt it today to ask you this. He always says, if you could tell people one thing about God, what would that be?

That he is the God of restoration. Hmm. You, you know that you may feel like you are broken beyond love and forgiveness, but. God is, God is the God of restoration and he loves you and his son died for you, and that there is a path to come back to him no matter how unforgivable you may believe that you are.

100%. You know, a lot of people, and we've talked before on the show about a lot of people want to get restored and then go to God because they're ashamed to go to him in a broken state, in a sinful state, in a guilty state, but God is looking for us. To restore. He is looking for us in that state at, at all times.

You know, and I think it's a, a easy analogy, right? If your children get injured as a parent, you want them to come to you with their injury, not come back. And here's, here's an even better thing, if you're a child and you break your arm and then you don't seek medical help or your parents, it doesn't heal the right way.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've never thought of that analogy before, but as parents, you want your children to come to you. Even if they're hurt, they're broken. That's exactly what God wants. Mm-hmm. Don't wait until you think you're perfect. He wants you right now, even if it was your fault, right? Yeah. You know, you can be mad or disciplined later, but if your children get hurt, even if it was 'cause of their own stupidity or bad decision or whatever it was, uh, even if, most importantly if they did something that you told them not to you, and you know, because a lot of us say, man, God told us not to do this and we did it, but.

Again, is that that restoration comes first, and so I think that's so important and I wanna share. One of my favorite Bible quotes is The Lord is close to the broken hearted and saves those crushing spirit. Psalm 34 18, I, you know, when I was going through the military and there was a lot of hardship and bad days, that was one that kept me anchored, and there was a lot of times where I doubted it.

You know, I said. Well, Lord, I'm broken hearted and I'm crushing spirit. Where are you? And I know it can be difficult. It's easy to say it. It's, it's harder to believe it, uh, but God really is close to broken hearted and saves us crushing spirit. He, he loves us. He doesn't want us to be in that state. And so we need to lean on him in that time more than anyone.

And I've been fortunate, uh, though it may seem unfortunate to non-believers fortunate that God has put me into situations where. All I had was leaning on him. I had nothing else. You know, so I, I think it's important, but preferably lean on him before you get into that situation. You know, God had to put me there.

Don't put yourself there, you know, lean on him now. Seek after him now. And so I, I gotta ask you, Larry, if you could leave us with one Bible quote, what would that be? Well, I've already used one Peter five, seven. So. I, I guess just, there are a few other quotes in the Bible for you to choose, so don't worry.

There, there are a couple more, you know, uh, there and, and, uh, um, I'm embarrassing myself because, uh, well, the obvious one is from Philippians four. I can do all things through Christ, which strengthens me. And understanding that, you know, so many people misquote that meaning that, um. They can, they, because they have a savior, they're just able to do all things.

And what Paul, what Paul's getting across is you're able to endure all things. Mm-hmm. Very different.

I agree. I think that's a very good point because a lot of people are, uh, for lack of better words, grace abusers. I know plenty of people who say, you know, I'm gonna sin all week because on the weekend I get my reset. Or, you know, Jesus died so I could do whatever I want. And you know, I, I always say, even if that were the case.

We ought to strive for what is good, even if it's for, even if what is bad is forgiven, you know, because that's just how it is. We should strive to do good. But on, on top of that, I think it's so important to say, yeah, like Jesus isn't authorized. Because I've, I've seen it firsthand. People who have committed crimes and said, well, you know, I'm, I'm God's child.

I can do what I want, or this and that. Especially, you know, I'm God's princess, I'm God's, you know, whatever it is. I've heard a lot of that. Enduring is different. I can do all things by, I mean, I can survive all hardships, you know, if you said that people wouldn't, I don't think people would like the quote as much, unfortunately, you know, but it's, it's, you said, you said Paul addresses that in the epistles about, um, people wanting to be grace abusers and, and you're exactly right.

Yeah. And in, I believe it's. I know it's somewhere in the New Testament, either Peter or John that says that, um, people will come who will twist the scriptures as they have done since the beginning. You know, and we've, we've seen people twist scripture for centuries, and that's not gonna change anytime soon.

In fact, I think it only gets worse and worse, but. We can fight that by having a spirit of discernment, by staying educated in the word, you know, more important than anything is, is scripture first. Read that and then have a spirit of discernment. And I know it can be very hard with, there are so many options for ministry nowadays.

You've got podcasts, TV shows, uh, online ministries. You've got in-person communities. You've got not just official churches, you've got small gatherings, local gatherings. You've got these big, big churches. So there's so much out there. Different versions of the Bible. There's now there's AI generated Bible content.

So a spirit of discernment is more important now than before. Yeah, it, it does because I watched, I watched a YouTube short, it was a fiction known Bible scene of Satan talking to Jesus on the cross saying You died for nothing. All these people you saved generations from. Now they're gonna be rappers and strippers and criminals.

And I was going through the comments section 'cause I knew it was fake and the amount of people who believed it said, this is so bone chilling. I can't believe this, this, this, the Bible was real because of this. Uh, you know, and they, of course there was a bunch of people saying, this is AI generated. This is not real, but it, it, it is so concerning.

Mm-hmm. And the number one way to avoid this is by educating yourself in the word. And there are so many believers who have never read the Bible. Uh, end to end so many believers who just, whatever their pastor puts out, whatever the daily quote is, that's all they do. There is so much in those historical accounts that will anchor you in what is good and what is bad, and what is true and what is false.

And so I think that's important. And on top of reading the Bible, you also should read Restoring the Broken. Again, moral injury is something that is not exclusive to military members. It can happen to anyone. And as, as. Especially those of the faith because we were tested more than anyone, so. The book is coming out right around the corner.

You can join a wait list now or whenever you listen to this episode, we'll also just have, uh, Larry's website and a description below for you to check out. So whenever you know, whether it's before or after, you can get that book, I highly encourage y'all to check that out. And Dr. Larry Bran, thank you so much for coming on the show.

I appreciate what you do. I mean, decades and decades of serving others first, so I really appreciate that. And even now, as you get ready to go into. Retirement. Right. Retire retirement from one job to the next. Um, you know, you're spending the time a guest on podcasts and, and put out a book to help people.

So I, I have a lot of respect for what you do. Appreciate it. Thank you very much. It's been an honor to be on your podcast.