Suicide Gone By 2035? Early Childhood Prevention Over Intervention

Today, I sit down with Ms. Deborah and Mr. Brian, who are on a powerful mission to make suicide extinct by the year 2035. We start with some startling statistics and talking about intervention before we explore how true prevention starts at the root — long before the crisis point — through education, conversation, and emotional tools made simple enough for even eight-year-olds to understand.

Ms. Deborah shares how her own experiences with suicidal ideation and healing through EMDR therapy inspired her to write a book and create a prevention program built around “The Five Stages of Intellectual Development.” She emphasizes the need to begin conversations around emotions and decision-making as early as age eight, before puberty and the social issues of adolescence hit. 

Mr. Brian, who survived a suicide attempt that resulted in the loss of a limb, joins the conversation with vulnerability and wisdom. He talks about the long journey from hopelessness to hope, the power of second chances, and how his new sense of purpose is helping others reframe their own lives.

We discuss why lived experience is more valuable than a degree in this space, and how the real goal is prevention, not just intervention. We also explore the roadblocks they’ve faced — from website restrictions in Canada to the difficulty of getting taken seriously without clinical credentials — and how they’ve pushed forward anyway, one conversation and one child at a time.

https://www.survivorsofhopelessness.com/

*I said attempted, but more accurately, had a plan and then was stopped by God.

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Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today we'll be tackling a subject that we've covered quite a bit on the show, though you can never talk about it too much, which is suicide prevention and awareness specifically this.

Episode is part of an agenda to have suicide be stopped by 2035. We're gonna get into what that year means and why in a little bit here. We've got two guests today, so we've got two people today working together with me on this, which is great to see the highlights. One of the things we need to do, which is work with one another in suicide prevention and awareness, it is.

A group effort as much as it is on those one-to-one connections. And so first, Ms. Deborah, if you could introduce yourself for us. Well, thank you Mr. Whiskey. Very happy to be here. And, uh, yes, we have approached suicide from a pure prevention perspective. Um, I personally wrote, um, my autobiography or memoirs, if you will.

As documentation of what I survived and why I struggled so much with suicide ideation. And when I finally got healing from EMDR therapy, I thought to myself, you know, people always say, if I knew then what I know now, I would've done things so differently. And that is what I wanted to give to the upcoming generation.

I wanted to give them a framework that they could understand the bigger picture of life and have a way to make good decisions and have a way to assess. Where they are in the bigger picture, so that one thing that occurs, that seems looming over them, that is so awful, they can't feel that they can go on, doesn't have to be so big if they put it within this framework.

So we recommend that our program be provided to people starting at age eight at the youngest. Before puberty, so 12, 13, 14, wherever that lands for certain people, because puberty is when everything starts to get mixed up and people start to have the most trouble with, um, uh, just thoughts and and emotions because they become so overwhelmed quite often.

For sure. And I have some commentary on that, but I will wait until Mr. Brian, would you please introduce yourself as well? Sure. I'm Brian Wardell. Uh, I'm 47 years old, five foot nine, and a great dancer and a lot of fun to be with. Um, yeah, my, my, I met Deborah in 2020, January of 2020, and it was after my suicide attempt in December of 2019.

Um, yeah, I tried, I tried jumping and. Pretty injured. Uh, but I survived and I've come to realize what a wonderful blessing that is. So, uh, what I want to do in collaboration with Deborah is to help use my experience as a survivor, as somebody who wrestled with depression and anxiety all my life. Uh, help to help other people, um, to not.

The same choices that I made. Right. So I wanna start with Ms. Deborah. You mentioned the puberty age range. And I do wanna get into that because I did guest on another podcast, the, uh. Catholic, uh, men's life coach show. And I remember I was speaking and, and guessing about specifically suicide in children and how to address that and, and talk with them as a father, uh, and how to incorporate faith into that conversation.

And when I was researching for it, what I found was pretty startling, which was the fact that. The amount of suicides in children, which for suicide statistics is from around 10 years old to 25 because they say around 25 is when the brain finally stops developing in that kind of puberty and young adult age.

So those are considered children. It had more than doubled, um, since the launch. In start of social media back in around 2008, and I was looking at the statistics of how many a day and how many a year and very, uh, interesting. Very sad. And, uh, one of the interesting points, which I'll mention here is something for everyone to think about is that from like the 10-year-old to 18-year-old range, it was mostly, uh, young girls in, uh, attempts, uh, for every.

I don't wanna call it successful, but for every completed suicide, unfortunately there was about 200 attempts. Uh, so that involves self-harm or failed, um, you know, attempts. And then when you got to that 18, it swapped to men, uh, took the majority of the attempts in, uh, completions, and they were more completions than attempts.

Uh, so that's interesting to look at that. And I've kind of discussed, if you look at the social dynamics of. Young girls from 10 to 18, and then the social dynamics of men from 18 to 25. It's kind of where life is hardest for them based on social media, image dating, um, finances, all that stuff. And so you talked about getting the books to them at eight and some people would say, well, hey, eight, that's too early to, you know, discuss with your children suicide.

Uh, but it's the same conversation I've had when it comes to pornography. Average age of exposure to that is now nine years old, unfortunately. Uh, I think that's disgusting, but. Because of social media and easy access and all this and that, uh, average exposure is not. So unfortunately, parents had to have that conversation soon.

The same with the suicidal ideation and the mental health and the depression. We're seeing it onset a lot faster because, uh, it's not just your, your childhood and your family dynamics now and social life, but also everything from the internet and the world. And so I think when you talked about getting those resources as sooner rather than later.

Which you always want in, in, in suicide prevention sooner rather than later. That it can do a, a great thing to help them as they're developing through that hard time. Having this information ahead of time. Yes. Again, prevention. It is the same as if you think about flu. If you get a flu, flu shot, you don't get a flu shot if you already have the flu.

Right. At that point, it's intervention. And while we do have a music video on our website that is an intervention type message, the actual program itself is written for eight year olds, and it is simplistic. The workbooks are, um, lots of room for writing and drawing and whatever they want, you know, however they wanna express themselves.

I recommend that they go over this information. The parents go over this information with their their children once a year. That's one hour a year to sit down and help that student understand how to make good decisions. What criteria do you take into the consideration when you are faced with adversity?

When you are feeling sad and we identify hopelessness. As being the culprit that pushes people over the edge, right? Because hopelessness is what shuts off our number one instinct to survive hopelessness does it. So if you can explain to the student the saddest feeling you've ever had. Whatever that is, or whenever it shows up, and it might show up again later about something else, but if they understand, this is the saddest feeling I've ever had, how do I deal with that?

What do I do with that instead of just, this is the saddest feeling, I can't, you know, and just go off over the deep end. Right. And I think, like you said, doing it each year is important because each year of school is so different from the last, and just each year of life is so different from the last. I mean, we see how fast the world is changing every day.

I mean, any of y'all listening right now, you could turn on the news and, and something has completely changed from yesterday. So keeping up with that fast-paced world, especially. Not just the years are changing, but especially from eight to 25, you're changing as a person each year. And so that conversation may, uh, be interpreted and reciprocated differently than the year before.

Uh, it's always good to brush up and, you know, just speaking of hopelessness and, and talking about that, Mr. Brian, I wanna pivot to you to share about how you ended up feeling, you know, hopeless and how that affected you. Yeah, well, I mean, without going into excruciating detail, uh, I had become, this was, uh, back in 2015 and I had started, I had become the, uh, the caregiver for my mother, um, who didn't, you know, she didn't need total care.

She didn't need help. You know, I didn't need to change diapers or anything like that, but there was, she needed a lot of help around the house. If any chores needed to be done outta the home, like shopping, I needed to do them. Uh, and as somebody who had struggled with feelings of self worth and my own value for so long, uh, when in 2019 my mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer, uh, you know, by the time they, they found it, it was too far along for any treatment.

I was, you know, I was obviously very close to my mother. Um, but also that, you know, that newfound sense of purpose, uh, had been torn away from me. And so eventually, you know, I struggled with my feelings and eventually I just woke up one morning and it's like, I. I don't see any future for myself that I would want to be a part of.

I don't want to die, but I just don't see how I could live and not be miserable. Uh, that I would be a burden on the people I love and they would resent me for it, and, and I would be miserable. So I thought that taking my own life would be the best course of action available to me. So that's what I, that's what I tried to do.

Yeah. Jumped and busted myself up pretty good. Uh, my right leg needed to be amputated, uh, but hey, I'm alive. Right? And so one thing I want to focus on there, if I'm understanding correctly. Was it that you had kind of put all of your identity and purpose into being a son and a caregiver for your mother?

That, yeah, you summed that up perfectly. Uh, that, that feeling of never, never belonging, never fit, never fitting in, um, you know, not knowing where my value lies, uh, I thought I had found it. You know, and it did kind of take over my identity. Yes. Yeah. The reason I, I was able to kind of identify that so quickly is because it's very common to a lot of the military dynamics we've talked about transitioning to civilian life.

Uh, for those, we've had a lot of military members to discuss about being a marine had been their identity and purpose. You know, they weren't outside of that. Who were they? You know, I recently had an episode, uh, with Cole Grace, who he goes, I was a bomb disposal tech in Iraq and. That was it. I was the bomb disposal guy.

I got into civilian world and no more bombs to dispose. So what do I do? You know? And um, even with my father and other first responders we've talked about with firefighters, with police officers, and even I. With, you know, we've seen a corporate side where if you were a CEO for 20, 30 years and then you leave the company and it's like, what now?

Uh, and so we talk about how important it's to find a new purpose and invest your identity into multiple facets, always, you know, to be so much. And, um, just speaking of purpose, I mentioned in the very beginning of the episode. Uh, suicide being completely done with by 2035. Ms. Deborah, why specifically 2035?

Do you feel like that's a reasonable goal? Is it too optimistic? I'm sure everyone has their own opinion, but I'd love to hear why you chose 2035. Well, this, of course, is looking at the big picture, and this would be all things perfectly in line. In other words, every 8-year-old of today. Would receive this information.

And every year, between now and their age 18, which is 10 years, they would go over this information and Brian and I looked at this program and we said, if I'd known this, if I'd had this information when I was facing suicide, I would've never considered it. I would've understood that this is just a life cycle and this is something to overcome and to even see as a challenge perhaps.

You know, and we wanna teach, uh, youngsters how to be superheroes if they have this information and they see a classmate or a relative or somebody that they're finding is maybe sadder than they've ever seen them before. They can approach that person and say, right, I understand and this is how it works and this is why you feel this way and this is how you get through it, you know?

So we have our little superheroes on our website as well. Right. And one of the acronyms I remember learning in the military was act, ask, care, treat. Um, you know, and we talked about always ask because, you know, and, and one thing I'll say, not just the, the, the shipmates, the classmates, the coworkers, the family members that look more sad, but, um, some of the most suicidal people I've met have been the most successful, happy, seemingly people I've met and I would've never known if they hadn't said something first.

Um. So it's so important to always ask and uh, to, as we discussed in other episode, I was asking and give that space and time to receive the full answer, you know, to go deeper, not just get the surface level, it's fine or it's nothing, or, you know, maybe some other time, you know, dig a little deeper, respectfully.

And I think it's so important to encourage, you know, everyone, to always be looking out for one another, which can be a very hard thing to do, especially for young children to, to. Ask those kinds of questions, which can be very difficult conversations to have and to also be vulnerable and answer those questions.

And I think what really resonated with me is I know the first time I read the Bible end to end, there was so much in there, whether you believe in the Bible or not. There's a lot of good instruction in there that I read and I was like, if I had known this when I was a youth, I could have, and I thought about all the things that could have been different.

And I'm like, man. I wish, I wish I had known because it would've saved me a lot of trouble. So the same thing with, he talked about that. You would've realized that a lot of the difficulties you faced were short term or obstacles to overcome. And I think one of the biggest things when you're hopeless, when you're suicidal is you lack that foresight, that future vision, that long-term thinking you beget, you get so like closed in on, on the, today, today, today.

You know, I don't wanna live for another second, another minute, another hour. You know, I, I, so, I, I totally get that, and, and I want to pivot. Mr. Bryan, 'cause your story is truly remarkable because a lot of people in your situation would have been, felt even worse off losing, you know, a limb like that and being restricted in their lifestyle.

Now most people find that hopeless, kind of a hopeless situation, even when they already weren't depressed. So how did you go from bad to seemingly worse and come out better? Yeah, it was, um. I didn't, I wasn't happy that I'd survived right away. Um, I think it was, I, I also lost a lot of blood, um, from my injuries as well.

So I was very, I was very weak for a lot of times, and as reminded me when I talked to her, I told her twice on the operating. Wow. Uh, they had to restart my heart. Um, but, uh, yeah, I, I, yeah. So I was gonna say I'd been in, uh, intensive care for like five days before they were able to transfer me out before I was strong enough.

But, uh, I think it was the second day I was in, I was visited by a psychiatrist who talked to me and asked me questions, and I. Uh, things I had said suggested that, uh, um, my injuries were self-inflicted, uh, to the doctors and, and hospital staff. And, um, she asked me after, you know, at the end of our conversation, asked me, uh, are you happy that you survived?

And I said, yes, but. I was only saying that because I knew that's what she wanted to hear. Right. Um, I didn't really feel that way. I wasn't, I wasn't angry that I had survived at that time, but I was, I, I was pretty ambivalent of two months about that. Um, so it was, it was a few days after they had moved me into the trauma ward and I had.

You know, I had friends and family. My two older brothers with whom I had never ever been close were very different people. Uh, they came and visited me and they showed me such, um, you know, unconditional love without the trace of judgment. And I really didn't expect that. I thought for sure they'd think I was jealous or weak or stupid or whatever.

Um. That and my friends coming and visiting me and telling me about times that I had made a difference in their lives that I didn't even realize were that significant. You know, that was part of my problem too, was, you know, didn't think that I was really that important in anybody's life. Um, so yeah, all together that, and a lot of times thinking.

Lying in the hospital with three broken limbs and Right. I had a lot of time and a hard time sleeping because of all the noise and light and people bustling around. Had a lot of time to think and realized, oh man, I, I, my brain had me turn the complete wrong way around. You know, I wanted, I didn't wanna live before now I.

Yeah, it's uh, it's a very humbling and, uh, chilling story because you think about all the people who did exactly what you did and, and aren't here with us today, you know, that eye of all people was, was spared. I think it's a very humbling thing to, to look at and, uh, you know, that the idea of second chances like that, you know, it's, you look at the percentage of, of surviving that I feel very blessed.

It's, uh, it's, it's, it's a chilling story for sure. And I, I think I, I really have respect for you, you know, continue to, to live because there are people who would've thrown that second chance away just like, uh, the, the first time. So for you to be out here trying to prevent people from, from doing that, I really respect that.

And so I want to get into. What are you doing nowadays? And that starts with going back to how you and Ms. Deborah met and 'cause y'all are working together now. So how did that meeting happen? My best friend at the time, uh, knew that I was working with suicide prevention and I was volunteering with some of the local, um, halfway houses for students and, and youngsters at risk.

And she called and told me about Brian being in the hospital because she was very good friends with Brian's mother. Mm. And had been for years and years. And when I heard about that, of course, uh, what was amazing is I had just finished my book and it was published, uh, in February, pardon me. It was released in February of 2019.

And so I was getting more and more serious about my program. I had already written the program, but I hadn't begun yet to, um, distribute it or to offer it because I thought, you know, this program really needs to be offered by a male female team. Like you have to have the chi and Chung, right? You gotta have right the balance, right.

And so I thought, where am I gonna find a man who, number one, would be willing to do this with me? Number two has the level of experience that would be required and and three would, would feel okay about talking about it. Because I went through a lot of, of difficulty when I was working with this, actually talking about it.

I had shame, right? I had a great deal of shame. And so, um, when Rosemary called me and said, this man is in the hospital, I thought, really? So I went to see him and, and we talked for a while and I said to him, would you be interested in working with me on this? And I showed him the program and explained. I was a teen suicide survivor.

I was 19 when I attempted very seriously, and that was in 1972. That was a long time ago. So I needed someone, uh, more current. I needed someone more local, and there he was, right? And yeah, so I didn't fly with it. And so when I asked him, I said, would you be interested in helping others to. See this through this program?

He was, he was, yes, absolutely. He was very ready, willing, and able to do that and he's never been shy to talk about it. He's always been very forthcoming. Si the sincerity and the warmth that Brian has naturally has been tremendous in being able to present this information and to reach the hearts of others.

Wow. For me listening to your story is just. Further confirmation for me as a believer in how everything just perfectly lined up. You know? And I, I think that's so great. And so, can you tell us a little bit more, y'all two met and now you're on this journey. What has that journey looked like in terms of your book, in terms of speaking, in terms of, you know, re trying to reach these, these, these people all over the world who, who need to hear this message?

Not just those who are suicidal, but really. People who can play a part in helping spread the resources and having these conversations and like you said, getting these to the children. Yeah. Ours is a common sense approach. Uh, neither one of us is lettered. Um, I am a healthcare aide, which is the lowest rung in the medical industry.

Um, you know, well below social worker and even, uh, yeah, and especially EMS. So having no letters, uh, to attract programs or organizations that run programs like this has been very difficult, and I understand that there has been no, yeah, there's been no positive response there. Most of the work we've done has been on podcasts like yours.

We have had our own webinars where we presented the program over a period of days, uh, in a row and gone through all five of the stages. Uh, our program is called Five Stages of Intellectual Development to keep it separate from, uh, emotional and spiritual and physical development. Skin itself. Now, of course the emotions have to be addressed because that's what moves us and, and pushes, uh, especially if you're experiencing the hopelessness.

But ideally, what we want to do is train the brain to make good decisions and how to assess a situation, and this gives the framework to do that. So I've also, uh, been reaching out to a number of different opportunities, uh, including, believe it or not, um, Netflix have been talking to producers and executives there, and they have expressed some interest in the, uh, subject matter as it has become more and more popular in mainstream media.

Meaning movies and series and things of that nature. So yeah, so we continue to go. We continue to offer even at one, one person at a time. If we're talking to one person at a time, then we have helped someone and we've done what we want to do. We fulfilled our purpose. I can relate a lot to the, uh, lack of degrees or doctorates, you know, because I was recently declined a speaking opportunity at a suicide prevention conference and there was no reason why, but compared to the, uh, other speakers and the fact that they specifically asked, uh, me for some clinical licenses or certificates, but I think this is a very lived subject.

Um. I was 16 or 17, uh, when, when I attempted. And so I, I've been through it. I've stopped suicides, uh, both verbally and by, uh. My physical force, uh, while serving in the military, I, I knew people, um, who took their lives. I served with people who were grieving and suffering from the people who took their lives, who were best friends and served alongside with them in the, in the military especially.

It wasn't just, they worked together, they lived together, they ate together, they brushed their teeth together. So it's a, uh, an even deeper hurt. And, um, just like Mr. Brian here and, and you as well, you know, we had that lived experience and I think that relatability is more important than any degree or lettering could give us when it comes to this.

You know, the same with the addiction counseling. I think there's a level of knowledge you need to have for sure. But again, I. Most people who are addicted want to speak to someone who has been through it themselves. Uh, because it's one of those things where if you haven't been through those emotions, you come off very, you know, textbooky so to speak.

It, it sounds like you're reading a script, but when you have that lived experience, like I, I believe that Mr. Brian has felt hopelessness on a level that other people just can't even imagine, you know? Right. And so I, I understand your frustration with that, but. I respected the, the, uh, at least you're trying to do everything you can, reaching all the outlets you can in the meantime, because that's the best we can do.

And so, Mr. Brian, how has your experience with this been as well? Well, it has been, uh, a lot of ups and downs now. I mean, doing, you know, actually doing the, trying to spread, uh, spreading the word is great. There has been a lot of very sharp learning curves and, uh Right. A number of disappointments. 'cause with our, uh, our website, yeah, I mean, we had the original, the original website and the original, uh, original URL let's render suicide extinct.

Well, in Canada you cannot use the word suicide, uh, in marketing at all. You can't even say anti-suicide. Marketing. Wow. Uh, so we had to, we came up with survivors of hopelessness. Uh, we originally made a video using Zoom and we thought, you know, not bad for a couple of amateurs, and we wanted to go to an, a marketing agency defended out.

And they were like, oh, no. Oh, oh, no, no, no, no. Right. It was such a mud show production. They're like, uh, no. Uh, then we ended up doing like, multiple videos with a production company, but I mean, they, they only seemed to be marginally more experienced and more aware of what this should look like than we were, you know, the first time they sent a.

A cameraman, you know, a videographer to record us. And I mean, it was terrible because Deborah and I, we really, you know, for this for an hour video, we need to be produced. We need to be directed. We didn't have any of them. We finally got a, a good video in the can, but boy, we went through a learning experience and it was.

Very much like our five stages of intellectual development. We thought, oh yeah, it can't be that hard. We got this figured out. And when we thought, oh yeah, that's, that's fine. Right? That'll be good. People like the, uh, the minimal, the minimalist approach and the authenticity and, oh, no, no. Uh, so yeah, I mean, we.

We were like teenagers going through that phase of Yeah, I got it, I got it figured out. You know, I, I know that much. That's all there is. Right, right. Yeah. Well, I, I get that's, that's where we were and talking with people, you know, trying to either partner with people or, or, you know, otherwise, um, you know, we're talking to people to help spread the word and.

At first, they seem interested and we think, Ooh, this is really good. And then all of a sudden they're, they just either ghost us or they say, no, or, you know, they totally change their tune and ugh. So yeah, like I say, a lot of buts and downs. Yeah, for sure. No, I totally, we finally, sorry. I was just saying I can relate to it because it's the same thing with anyone who starts a podcast or writing a book.

You're like, can't be that hard. And then you find out there's a lot of learning curves, uh, like you said. But to quote, uh uh, Chris Zos, who wrote the book, start Ugly About Just start your podcast and figure out the rest along the way. Basically. Um, I think that that is kind of one of the best things you can do.

I mean, if you have the time to research ahead of time and set everything up, perfect, but, um, if not, and you're ready to get going, you know, get going, you'll figure everything out, out along the way. But as long as you reach people, right? I mean, that's the biggest thing. Reaching people, specifically the right people at the right time.

No, and I, I can relate to the frustration of, you know, when I post stuff on social media about addiction prevention and recovery or suicide prevention, that's not, in some places it's trending very minutely, but for the most part, people don't want to, you know, see that stuff on social media. They want to look at hot girls or funny jokes or, you know, just waste time and, and they'll be on social media for 2, 3, 4 hours at a time.

But as soon as something like my content comes, they just swipe away because they don't want to in invest. And you know, a lot, especially the younger, younger generations are getting shorter and shorter attention spans. Uh, so, but I think it is important, you know, everything I make, I make with the intention that will reach the right person at the right time.

And you never know when someone's gonna find this. It could be even my old episodes, I said, you know what, 10 years from now someone might find it, who's famous is like, this is great stuff. And spread it everywhere. Yeah. As long as the message was good. I, you know, the aesthetics can be how they are. So I, I get that.

Yeah. We finally came up with, um, kind of a motto. Uh, hindsight is 2020, so let our experience be your best teacher. Right? And that's basically where we're coming from. And rather than allowing it to be drowned in academic rhetoric. We have presented this in a very simplistic, straightforward manner. Like I said, it's common sense.

It's not anything that you didn't already know. It's just been organized and outlined and framed so that it can be a tool for parents and students to communicate with each other about this subject in a more comfortable manner, more matter of fact. And. What I always say about podcasting, about music, about any kind of story or testimony, you might be the person they need to connect with.

Look, there are plenty of people who run a show just like mine there. There's thousands of them, but how I present it, how Ms. Deborah presents it, how Mr. Brian presents it, it's all slightly different. We all have a similar story to some degree, right? But sometimes you just connect with a person better. And that's why even, and I don't want you to think about like, well, I didn't, you know, jump off a jump off and, and, and lose a limb and everything.

It's not about this scale of the story, it's about the emotion behind it. And I was listening to two, um, Christian musicians talk yesterday on a podcast about. Even if your testimony isn't as big or as grand as some of these people's, 'cause look, sometimes I think about it, you know, like some of my favorite, um, believers, their testimony is they were homeless, they were on drugs, they were drunk, they were in and outta jail, and then they gave their life to Christ.

And sometimes I'm like, well, I didn't do all of that, you know, but your story might be the one that they need to relate to. Just like, even if you're like, Hey, I. Attempted, but I didn't really do too much or I didn't follow all the way through. You still went through those emotions of, of wanting to, to hurt yourself, to end your life, of going through that experience.

So, you know, sometimes your, your testimony doesn't have to be a complete horror story or a completed story, you know, it's just about that journey and, and that relatability. So I think it's so important that wherever you are and however you can, if you can share your story to, to help save a life, don't worry about all that.

You know, grand aesthetics, this is about saving lives, you know? Right.

Yeah, I've never been shipped wreck twice, uh, like, uh, like Apostle Paul has. So, uh, right. I guess my story just, it ain't worth listening to. Right. I, right. I've never beaten with rods and left for dead like he was either. We, we all like, I, as I like to say, we all, um, have our own burdens and scars and we all have different.

Levels of, of pain too, you know, for some people or as a, um, a man who I was on his podcast and he was talking on his social media the other day. We all have different rock bottoms, you know, and he wished that his rock bottom was not so far as it was because if he had turned his life around sooner, it could have been a lot better, but.

All, all of us have our, our different limits and stories. And what I want to get into is we've talked about your website. Uh, we're gonna have that in the description below for everyone to check out, which has your book, your courses, how to get in contact with y'all. Um, and we've kind of gone over your stories in, uh, briefly 30,000 foot overview and what you're doing nowadays.

So part of that is guessing on podcasts to spread the word, to, to share the message, and to get this out there. Oh, before we finish here, what would be the main message you wanna, uh, give away to everyone and that you want everyone to hear and, and kind of reflect on? Well, uh, I've already said it. It's the hindsight being 2020.

And let our experience be your best teacher. And, uh, this is a matter of fact, uh, common sense approach. It's just been, uh, packaged in a manner that will make the conversation easier between parents and the students, and it has to come from the parents. If the parents take this and, and share this with their child and review it every year, I'm telling you, they will never, they, they will never consider suicide because they will understand that bigger picture and it just won't even be a thought.

Right. It wouldn't even be a consideration. And then it would be extinct by 2035. That's right. When the eight year olds of today graduate high school at 18, yeah, it would be extinct by then. That whole generation would not even consider, uh, suicide. And of course, that's the big dream. That's the, that's the, that's the whole pie right there.

So if we could just get a percentage of that pie, that'd be great. But. That's the potential. All righty. And Mr. Brian, your message? Well, um, one of our other, uh, mottos is that, wait one more day. And that applies with suicide. That applies any time that, uh, you have a big decision to make. Uh, anytime that you are, uh.

Feeling very strong emotions. And those strong emotions are pushing you in one way or another. Um, I mean, we, we focus on the intellectual aspect, not because, not to ignore feelings. Feelings are important. Uh, there's a lot of, there's already a lot of focus on, on feelings and emotions. Right. And emo what we wanna talk about is using your brain.

To recognize feelings and how to, um, sort of stop yourself from letting your feelings rule your decision. Uh, if I had waited one more day, um, you know, I, I might have felt differently and in an out, certainly after a, uh, a good night's sleep the next day. I mean these, maybe I would. But I, I didn't give myself that chance.

If I had things could have been very different. So wait one more day. And we are not trying to replace anything that's out there. We're trying to fill in where there's a gap that early your prevention, uh, so much of what is called prevention is intervention. As Deborah said, we want that early peer prevention.

Uh, we want to talk to the people, uh, the, the, um, the children who may end up feeling very depressed and even suicidal. We wanna talk to the ones who would never, ever commit suicide because then they can, um, be the superheroes that Deborah mentioned. Uh, for others they can recognize. Boy, you're usually really outgoing and you've been really withdrawn lately.

Let's talk about it. Yeah, no, I, I like the, probably what I'll title this episode is prevention, not Intervention. Um, obviously it's never too, never too late, right? Definitely do intervene and all that, but if we could prevent it beforehand, same thing with addiction Recovery. As much as I love addiction recovery.

Oh, one of the guests I had on my show, actually the whole episode's theme was, what if we took everything from recovery? That could be preventative and applied it first. What if we, you know, did better at never using drugs or alcohol in that way to begin with? Mm-hmm. I think it's the same thing with the suicidal ideation, and it doesn't have to be this big, weighty topic that you're dropping on an 8-year-old.

Right. It starts with the conversations about feelings, social interactions, right? You don't even have to use the word suicide. You don't have to talk about self-harm or share example stories. It starts with basic skills and and communication. And I think one of the most important things too is I. Our children sometimes are gonna feel outcasted from the world, whether that's work, school, whatever it may be.

But if your communication line as a parent is always open and they always can at least turn to you when they're feeling suicidal or depressed, at least you've given them that one lifeline that they can rely on. So it's so important as a parent to at least be that anchor for when everything else in the world goes sour.

So I think it's so important to constantly be talking to our children and again. Address it. Don't sugarcoat it necessarily, but you know, one day at a time each year, maybe add onto it a little more as they get older and they can understand more, you get more into it, especially once they're teenagers and they're at an age where they can understand about that stuff.

So I think this is so important, this prevention. Prevention first, intervention second, right? Having that approach to it, spreading awareness. So again, I thank both of y'all for coming on the show today. Taking time out of your day, you know, to have these conversations with people like me, to help spread awareness and to provide your resources.

Again, filling in that gap, like we said, there's a lot of resources out there, and whatever it is that works best for y'all, check that out. But here is another. Resource right here, and it might be the one that saves your kids' life. So always think about that. So again, Mr. Brian, Ms. Deborah, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Thank you very much. Thank you for having us on Mr. Whiskey. Yes.