Taking Creative Risks: How to Write Stories Never Seen Before

Today, I sit down with G. Michael Hopf—Marine Corps veteran turned bestselling author and founder of two publishing companies. We talk through his evolution from writing a children's book inspired by his daughters to launching a viral apocalyptic novel that catapulted him into a 40-book writing career. Mr. Hopf shares the origin stories behind his most successful titles, explains the strategy behind using different author names for different genres, and offers a behind-the-scenes look at the publishing hustle—from school visits to Hollywood film options. 

Mr. Hopf and I dig into the gritty side of authorship—how realism from our military backgrounds influences our writing, why fiction is the most powerful medium for delivering important messages, and how to balance creative storytelling with technical accuracy. We also touch on the business side: how authors today must become savvy marketers, the rise of podcasting for book promotion, and why taking risks—even controversial ones—can lead to authentic, resonant storytelling. 

This episode is packed with advice for aspiring and established writers alike. We discuss genre-switching, firing agents, building universes, and why every story must start with your own passion—not audience trends. Whether you're dreaming of publishing your first book or want to take your writing to the next level, this conversation is a masterclass in turning lived experience into literary success. 

https://www.gmichaelhopf.com/

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Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and today we are going to be talking about one of my favorite subjects, which is writing. I've been able to feature a lot of authors on the show and every time I. There's such a different perspective, a different writing journey, because it's truly unique.

Just as every book is unique, the writing journey to create that book and the author themselves are so unique. So I'm excited to sit down today with G Michael Hoff to talk about his books and as we'll get into, there are many of them and you know, we're gonna talk about, one of the saddest things in my opinion is that I've met so many people who.

Wanted to write a book who had these amazing ideas, stories to tell, whether it was fictional nonfiction, but just gave up or felt like they didn't have that writer spirit in them or they couldn't do it. And so I'm hoping today's episode will be inspiration for you to finish that idea. You know, it always starts it as something so small, but I know from my personal writing journey and some of the books I published that.

It will grow on its own sometimes more than you thought and, and, and wanted to do. And so we're here to get into that. So, Mr. Hoff, I'd love for you to introduce yourself for us. Uh, first, uh, thanks for having me on Mr. Whiskey. It's, uh, it's great. It's an honor to be here, uh, to kind of. Uh, pontificate about writing and my military journey and my writing journey, ex publishing, et cetera, et cetera.

Uh, a little bit about me. I, um, I'm just a guy who, I grew up back east in Maryland on a farm, had a really good, uh, childhood, eventually wanted adventure. So I went in the Marine Corps, did six years, three deployments there, got out, did a bunch of pool. Um. Interesting jobs from a commercial diver to bodyguard for over a decade and then transitions.

Instead of using my body, I decided to use my, like my brain. I kind of went from physical to cerebral and got into writing and entrepreneurial endeavors as well. But the writing, uh, the writing journey really paid off for me. I've been very successful at it. And, uh, started out with a children's book back in 2012.

And then, which I wrote under the name Jeffrey Hoff. And then I wrote my first apocalyptic novel in 2013, uh, which I wrote under Gmic Hoff, not to kind of blur the lines between Children's Illustrated books and apocalyptic fiction. And then that book just took off a big, huge deal with Penguin Random House.

Now I'm 40 books later, two publishing companies I own and operate, uh, and have other adjacent companies that are attached to publishing. So I'm really knee deep in the world of writing and authorship and publishing. So that's where I'm, that's where I'm today. For sure. You know, as soon as you said a children's book, having already looked at your other books, it's like that's quite the different, uh, it's just like a completely different picture, you know, looking at your other books.

Yeah. A lot of them have kind of war scenes dystopian images. The, the text itself is kind of like that edginess to it, so I was like, I, I had to ask what kind of children's book was it? What was the theme and message of that book? It, well, it it, it was a, a children's illustrated book that you would read to, you know, toddlers up to like first grade.

Uh, and it was just, just followed a dog named Kiki and his adventures. That's what it was. And it really, that the birth of that was, uh, when my daughters were very young. I, I was, I was the one that kind of read to them a lot. And so I just loved telling them stories and just hang out with them. And so I was reading the books and one night I, I told, I asked my wife, I said, what do you think if I like did my own, like how hard could this possibly be?

That's good. That's silly question. Right? And because, you know, you look at the, the actual text in the Children's Illustrated book, you may be looking at six, 800 words. That's it. Right. But then there's a lot more goes into it, illustration, things like that. I didn't illustrate it, so I did, I did, I did write it.

It's a, it was a fun, I, I kind of base it off one of the many stories I would tell my daughters at night. Then, uh, got it illustrated by these wonderful illustrators down in Argentina, and the book came out in 2012. I got a wrote on Jeffrey Hop and then, um, then I got the idea to do a novel and I didn't want those two lines to blur, like I mentioned earlier.

Of course. Yeah. Um, because I, I had thoughts of like doing more children's books, but I didn't, that never happened because the novels just took off, like the first novel, just when it landed. 10 days later, it just went viral and I never looked back. And then I set to, uh, getting sequels out and just, I did, I, I really just put on my focus there and never, never got back to that, that children's book.

And, uh, again, I, I didn't want to blur the line, so I wanted the brand, the g Michael hop to do novels, hard, hard hitting action, adventure, apocalyptic, dystopian stuff. But, so that's kind of the reason, the different names and the G Michael Hoff thing. No, I get that. You know, in my personal opinion as a writer, uh, you know, who's published a couple books and has got more come out this year, I've always wanted to do a children's book, but it's to me, more difficult.

I can write, you know, realistic science fiction and all these big words and talk to adults. But when it comes to children's books, like you said, the word count is very small and you have to use language. That, you know, you still get the message across. You're not kind of like looking down on the child's intelligence, but you're also speaking to them at their level.

And for me, that's just as someone who writes a lot of big words kind of stuff, to go down to that level and try to still get the message across can be very difficult. And it's also a very competitive market. There are so many children's books out there. I remember last time I went to the library just looking.

I'm like, there's so many. Children's books that you wouldn't imagine. So I, I totally get that. Like, how hard could it be? And it's, it's a different task than writing the young adult or the post-apocalyptic, or in my case, the hard sci-fi. So that's an interesting transition. And do you think that you'll ever go back into those waters of writing children's books, or do you think you've officially closed that for good?

I, I will never say I've close to anything for good. You know, like, uh, people ask me if I'll ever retired. I have never planned on ever retiring. I'm just gonna continue to write, continue to create and produce till I just fall over at my computer or whatever, right? There's no reason to. Um, if I ever need breaks, like I, I've been kind of in the midst of a little bit of a break.

'cause I did hammer out 40 books in like 10 years. Uh, so there's that. Why I have that break between my latest novel, which I released in January, 2023 till now. I've just been in, I've been launching other companies that are kind of adjacent to publishing and writing and, and just very much creatively doing stuff and overseeing two publishing companies and overseeing kind of, uh, publishing other people's books and seeing consulting as well.

Seeing, you know, taking new authors and kind of coaching them and mentoring them all the way through to an idea to actually the book is in their hand and having successful launches for them. 'cause I just, I, we've been doing it long enough now I know how to do that. Have that formula down, I believe. Um, yeah.

I, I would never say never. It really just depends, you know, one of my daughters, if they ever bless me with grandkids, maybe I'll have that, that itch come back to me again. Right. And I'll just jump into it. Right. You know, it was just, it was a time and place. I, the, the children's book's great. I had the hustle.

I mean, I got all my money back. Like, I, I, it did it. You know, you're right. It's incredibly competitive Right. When you look at the space. It like, I was never gonna make any money or make my money back by just selling it exclusively on Amazon. So I had to like literally hit the pavement. And so I just created this marketing plan and I just went and read at like preschools and, and kindergartens kindergarten.

And then I would, I offered for the parents they could get an autographed copy. And I literally hustled for like nine months and I got, I, I, I made money on it and got paid. I paid back the investment in the book 'cause illustrated books. You think? Yeah, six to 800 words isn't much. The expense is the illustrations.

Colored ink. Oh yeah. It's a colored ink. Exactly. 'cause you know that price jumps up. You go from just black to, you're adding colorization, you're in a whole new thing. And then if you go into hardbound, I. That's just like, that just adds, you know, even more money to it. But then you're just looking at the illustrations if you want to do 'em.

Right. Unless you're, unless you're that person, which we're writers, we're usually not illustrators. You have to hire that out, right. And so you have to find the right illustrator and they're, that's not inexpensive. That can be in, that's easily in the thousands of dollars, so for sure. But I got my money back, so I was really happy about that.

So, and that's something that I think writers need to look at. And you seem pretty savvy about it. Uh, we're not just storytellers. We're not just creators and writers. We also have to have put on the hat of business. We have to understand the marketplace. We have to understand how to market and promote.

And I think some authors, I, my experience in the over the years is a lot of writers don't like that and they don't fashion themselves as that. And what they don't realize is even if you're with a publishing company. They're not going to do unless you're JK Rawling, Stephen King. They're not rolling out the red carpet.

They're not going to like, give you lavish, lavish budget to promote your book. And you still have to promote it yourself. And so you have to find very creative ways of doing so. Um, yeah, so be prepared. If you're gonna be self-publishing or even just publishing in general, you're gonna have to learn the, the business of book selling.

Right, and that's one of the unique things about the past few years is podcast guesting. Like I said, I've had a lot of authors on the show and there's a lot of podcasts that feature just authors or highlight authors, and that's something that really in the early two thousands, a lot of authors weren't guessing on podcasts.

Maybe they were going on TV shows or local newspapers where it may be. But now podcasting has presented this unique opportunity to integrate the. Marketing and highlighting your book series while also promoting you as a person and integrating lessons you've learned, like we're gonna get into your military history here and how it ties into your work as well as is applicable advice to everyone, right?

So that's a very unique opportunity that, you know, I think a lot of authors don't think of. They're like in one of the things we discussed, uh, in a previous episode too, is you never know about that right person, right time, right? So. I've had some authors who they try to hold book signings and only five people showed up.

10 people showed up. Maybe a couple. They're lucky. They're lucky if they get 10 people to show up. That's not their family. Yeah. And um, but as we discussed, all it could take is the right person who shows up and maybe they're a marketing expert, maybe there's someone famous or influential and they love your book.

Next thing you know, they bring it to their book club or whatever it may be. You know, we had a guy who was. He decided just to bring up his book to someone on an airplane next to him. Guy was a film producer, said, this book would be a good film. I'd like to work with you on this. So you, you're, you never know when the opportunity may come, you know?

So you gotta keep marketing, even if it seems like you're not reaching anyone, because it's not about. You know, thousands of people you reach, none of them buy your book. It's about maybe you only reach 10 people when they all buy your book and leave a review. Right. It's about those actual results. And I think one of the things that I find truly inspirational is a lot of the authors I've had on my show have been parents who I.

Wanted to express something to, to their children. So like a great episode was with Peter Gunn. He said, I want my daughters to love epic poetry like I do, but there's not a lot of good female representation in that, that they are being drawn toward. So he set out to make female empowered specific epic poetry.

In your case, you want to reach your children. So I think it's really awesome that parenting kind of opens up this, well, there's not this thing out there to provide my children with, so I'm gonna have to make it myself. I think that's really like. As a parent, super cool and inspirational. But I wanna circle back around to your military service, how that affected your journey with writing your mental health, your time for writing, your, you know, all of that.

And what influences from that are kind of main for us to see throughout your writing, if at all. Um, there was something I did wanna circle back. I wanna circle back with you on Sure. See if I remember. Messages right in writing. Um, and, uh, I, I, I was on another podcast recently and Lee Child happened to be Lee Child or Jack Reacher fame.

Uh, ha ha happened to be on there and Lee was mentioning how fiction is actually the best form of writing to deliver a message than say, nonfiction books. Most people don't think that. They think, oh, if I want to get something, if I wanna, if I wanna understand something, I need to read. Uh, survival 1 0 1 book, whatever.

Right. And the, the, the fact is that like, and I've seen this, so I've gotten thousands of responses over the years from people who have read my, uh, my books, the apocalyptic books specifically of how they're reading it, and they make that connection with that author. They, and there's not just a connection.

They're making an emotional connection. Right. That's the thing. That's the, that's the thing you're trying to connect with. You get the heart, and then you have the brain heart coherence that's going on, and then they're seeing characters. They're like, man, this guy's not prepared. I'm never gonna do that.

So many people over the years have gotten back and was like, I read your books and I realized just how unprepared I was in case something happened. Right? I need to change that. 'cause again, they're putting themselves in the shoes of the character and say, the character's a parent, and they get their kids.

And now that parent that that individual's not prepared and their kids are suffering because of the parent's lack of preparedness. And so I've seen like, that is just a powerful way to deliver messages is have your characters go through, you know, grief or suffering. Then the, the, the readers really resonate with that and it really makes them think a lot about their own lives.

And so fiction is very powerful. It's a powerful tool to deliver messages. And, um, so I want people to understand, don't think that it's not, that you're not just there to entertain, which I think is a very critical thing to do as a writer. Entertain people. Right. Um, but you can also deliver messages very subtly.

Sometimes just, again, you're showing the character suffering or showing them going through ordeals or showing them they're making a decision. That decision didn't work, and that resonates with the reader a lot. So you don't have to be completely overt in their face. You don't have to throw it in their face.

Because they're making that connection themselves, and they're putting themselves, they're creating a rapport with the, with the character. And so they're putting themselves in the shoes of it, for sure. And going back to, uh, going back to my, my military, my military experience was, uh, overall was a great experience.

I did six years in through deployments. Um, I'm, I'm a person that I don't, I don't like to look back at my past and have any regrets. And there were times that were very uncomfortable, not very pleasant. Hard, like very difficult. Uh, but I always reframe everything in my life that anytime it's challenging or difficult or something go my way, uh, that it's an opportunity to learn.

That's how I, and I've, I've looked at that as my military background and my six years in was an incredible experience that really set me on the course and put me where I am today without a doubt. And, uh, I definitely infuse that in my, in my books. Like the, uh, there's a lot of main characters in my apocalyptic fiction that have to be Marines just because you know what, you know, so I do, and uh, I, I, I cannot, and I can write it with realism, so anyone reading the books knows like I know what I'm talking about 'cause I did six years Infantry.

You know, deployed combat. So I know all these things so I can write it into the books with realism. And people pick up on that and they know. They know I'm not bullshitting. Right. And I think that's important and. One thing that I did all over all my years before I really started writing, uh, was read a lot.

Like you do a lot of reading when you're in the Marine Corps or in the service military in general. You sit around and read. And so, uh, I did, I consumed a lot of books. I was tinkering with writing over the years, but it really, I didn't really get in any writing adventure until the children's book. And then I kind of saw, you know, the idea and you take the idea.

Then you marry it with, you know, consistency and discipline. Then on the other side of it, you have a product in your end, you have a book. It's there. It's like, it's, that's kind of manifestation if you really wanna call it that. And once I did that, then I, then I knew I could write a novel and, oh yeah.

Going back to that too, another point you'd mentioned about, uh, one of the reasons I wrote the novel, I always kind of wanted to write one. I had this one in my head. I was always playing like a movie. As I was finding in the apocalyptic space, lots of great con, lots of great books out there, lots of great books, lots of great authors.

There was something missing that I wanted. I wanted a very com complex plot. I wanted something right? So I wanted to know what's happening everywhere. And so I was like, well, if I can't find it to read it, I'll write it. That's what I did. I wrote, and it's, I wrote The End, which is the first book in the series of seven.

And there's spinoff, there's a whole universe built around it. And I remember when I got picked up by Penguin, they were like, you know, uh, I was talking to the editorial director and she was like, you know, this is a very complex plot. And I wanted it that way. I wanted a lot of moving parts. I wanted a lot of POV characters all around the world so the readers can know exactly not just what's happening with this family in San Diego after this event, but what's happening in the military, what's happening in the halls of government, right?

So they get a, a, a more worldview of what's happening in this world and what's going on instead of leaving things kind of mysterious. It makes it a lot more difficult to write when you've got all these moving parts to try to make sure you don't have any plot holes and gaping, you know, issues mm-hmm. Uh, in the writing.

But, um. It really made it a very complex story, and I think that that also lent to some of its success is that it wasn't just entertaining, it was, it was captivating. Right. And you know, one of my most popular episodes on the show is actually titled Using Fictional Writing as a tool for political commentary because I had an author who wanted to address Situations in the Middle East and I asked, why not just write about.

The Middle East, what's going on right now? Why not make a news report? And you know, we went into the power of, like you said, that relatability, that especially a lot of people who are bombarded daily with the news from social media, mainstream media, they don't wanna just spend their free time doing that.

But when you're giving it to them in that form, that is entertaining. But educating, you know, it's more well receptive and just people don't realize how powerful that writing is because you look at like. All the TV shows and movies we watched, right? They started as a form of writing a script, uh, with like MCU in DC as a comic book.

And one of the things, like we talked about trying to make an impact. A lot of movies we've seen address environmental issues, right? I mean, even from, from Godzilla to Avatar, we see a lot of movies and shows, right? Sometimes they're kind of in your face about it. Like you said, sometimes they're not. Uh, sometimes they're just highlighting the beauty of nature and trying to get you to subconsciously think like, wow, you know, we're losing that in the world and we need to do something.

Sometimes I think, like in one of the Doctor Strange movies across the multiverse, they went to a different world, and in that world they highlighted, um, I forget the name of, it's like brutalism, uh, biological architecture where every building was covered with vines and flowers to promote. You know, having that industrialized space balanced with nature, right?

So I think there's a lot of ways through writing that you can address or promote ideas, whether political, scientific, or whatever it may be. So I completely agree with that. And I, I, like you talked about the realism part of it, so like. I think a lot of movies I've watched and prior to being in the military, I, I didn't care.

But once I was in the military and I watched a movie and there was military stuff, I'm looking at everyone's rank, devices. I'm looking at the words they say, and it just has become so funny because they're like. Calling this guy a chief or that guy, sir. I'm like, that's completely wrong. Or their uniform is just, yeah, wrong.

Or I'm, I'm watching some Marine movies. I'm like, well, that's not accurate, and this and that. And, um, it, it, it can be fun. But one of the things I was like, this isn't realistic. And when I write, and I, I too have some military characters and some writing, it's that more realistic approach that people are like, wow, you know, you wouldn't expect this of a military character or what the mainstream media puts forward in the movies and the shows.

So, like you said. You have lived experience, you know, and that's what I think makes the Vietnam books some of the best military novels. Uh, I know they're not fictional, but even the ones that are fictional based on that real life experience. You know, one of the best moments on my show, in my opinion, was I had a Vietnam veteran who wrote about a Marine's perspective on the Camp La June Act.

And so many people are like, Hey, veterans are getting paydays so nice. He wrote about how this marine. Was pissed off because he found out he didn't care about the money. Kim Lajeune had killed his wife and his children with the, the water? Yeah, the tax water. Yeah. That was the first time that I read something that was from a, a veteran's perspective and not just a, a civilian perspective on it.

And it, it was great. So I think even when I was in bootcamp, I was like, wow, you know, so many movies. I've watched so many books I've read. This is not at all what I expected based on that, at least. At least for the Navy, you, I can't speak for Army or Marines. I'm sure what you see on TV's probably more accurate than.

What Navy Bootcamp was. But you know, I was like, man, this would, this is good content. And I think really dissecting the personalities of people in the military. Like in one of my books I write about the smoke pit. You know, we had a smoke pit. Every, all the sailors would go take their smoke break just because they didn't wanna work.

And they would sit there and, and talk and you'd have these conversations between enlisted and higher up that just didn't happen within the workplace. And, you know, highlighting stuff like that. And like you said. Realizing man, I'm not prepared. Uh, especially when it comes to the dystopian writing. I think it's great for that political commentary.

And you mentioned creating something unique, uh, that isn't in the space already, and like you said, you're gonna get pushed back on that. And I think one of my favorite books, not for the plot necessarily or the content, but for it's structure, it's Laughter House five is in where you jump. Past, present, future.

It's kind of all over the place. And I'm sure, I don't know how that was published, but I imagine the conversation was, this is insane. You know, who's gonna want to read this? This is no, because it was something new and unique. Just like you're saying, the world is complicated. If, if there's a, a global event that is apocalyptic, yeah, you can focus in on one family's view, but it's affecting everyone.

So I think pushing through. I guess what I'm trying to say is don't be afraid to push back against that resistance. If you're trying to create something that hasn't done before, people are gonna say, Hey, you know, we don't know how this is gonna do, and you are taking a chance. You know, I'm sure you kind of took the chance at like, Hey, maybe no one's gonna buy this book 'cause it's too complicated, but that's what you want to put out.

Yeah. Um, I, I think the, the true essence for the writer is just right with that in like. Don't write me the intention that I, how, how do I phrase this? You need to write the story that's you, that that's coming from you, your heart. Yeah. That's what you wanna write. Um, if you're just doing it with the intent, that's the other, the other intention that you're, you're, it's hard to, I feel, feel to get into a flow state when you're, when you're writing.

'cause it's not organic. If you're trying to overhear to like appease or write me check boxes for some boxes. Yeah. You're trying. Exactly. That's a good way to put it. You're trying to check boxes. It's hard to kind of connect with your book that way. Yeah. Um, and kind of get into that flow state. Uh, and, um, I like look at, look at, look at writers.

Like we took Amer American literature that have kind of broken the molds. You've got kind of the, uh, the silent generation writers. You, you, you've got, um, uh, earnest Hemingway, right when he, you know, his style of writing was new at that time, you know, and then you jump, then you jump A few decades later, he got JD Salinger.

Everyone that was the critiques. You know, the critics, you know, weren't quite sure when he was, you know, when he was being educated. The professors were reading his stuff and they're like, what is this, you know, catcher in the Rye? And it was just a completely different way of writing in the way, and, and they weren't, but he revolutionized it.

I mean, I mean, we all know Catcher in the Eye. We know JD Salinger. I mean, I think that was right. He did another book, he did other books after that. But that was it. That was his kind of opus. And it was the one that we all know, and it wasn't a great book, but it completely changed writing. I. American literature changed at that moment, and then other people started to wanna write like him and, uh, I think it's okay.

I'm not, I'm not probably putting myself in that camp at all. Uh, but I think it's okay to take risks. But the main point I would say is you're taking the risk. Are you? Doing it because you are wanting to tell that story. Don't, again, don't be checking boxes. Just write that story you wanna write. And that's what I did.

I wanted the readers to see what was happening everywhere. Yeah. And how complicated and how diverse reactions and decisions are being made a decision in the families versus in the decision in the military ranks versus the government and all these things are happening. It, it then it makes for a very complex plot and a lot of moving pieces.

I just really wanted the readers to get a full breath on what's happening in the world after this massive global, it was ended up being a global event. Uh, but yeah, you know, going back to the military, this is something that I always pick up on. I do the same thing. I'm like watching TV and reading books.

Like what? Whoever, they did not have any technical advisors. I can tell you that. It's it. This is where you lose people. So if you've got, if you've got an audience that is, say primarily have a, you have a demo that's say 10% or military, former military people and you are getting those things wrong, they're now questioning what else are you getting wrong if you can't, if you can't just get that basic stuff down, rank structure again, whether, you know, marines don't wear covers inside, you know what I'm saying?

Like we don't salute inside, we stand at attention research, those little kind. Yeah. Then what else? Like specifically if you're writing hard science fiction and you're writing something like that, people are like, well, is the rest of like, I, how would I believe any of this? Like, it's just that you can't even get you, you're too lazy to even get take, take the time out to do that.

And the same thing when you're writing. Uh, uh, science fiction. I've written a couple too. You can make up stuff that's fine. Plasma rifles and all this cool stuff. But when you're writing something that's contemporary or even historical and say you're dealing with weapons, if you can't get weapons, right, like the testing again, yeah.

You, you'll, you, you're just going, or any kind of technical thing about something. But this is always gets like. A big part of my demo are they're vets or preppers and survivalists. They're, they're a solid chunk of my demo, and they're really hard on that. They're like, if you can't get weapons, right, you know, you can't, like you're talking about a slide on a revolver.

Well, like revolvers don't have slides. They have cylinder, like it's like. Yeah, those little details, like, they literally stop reading like, I'm done. I'm never gonna read another book from this person. They don't know what they're talking about. It's clear. Mm-hmm. So you lose them. So it's, if you're taking the amount of time to write a book, which is, you know what it is, it's, it's a lot of time, a lot of man hours.

Um, then do that, right, do that research. If you, if you're gonna enter in a weapon system, if you're gonna do this, you're gonna have a ship, whatever, just take a little bit of time. There's a, the, the Internet's incredible resource to use. Do some research, go on YouTube, watch some videos, understand what you're doing.

Yeah, realism. That's one reason when I look at writers that I really gravitated toward and I read when I was young, uh, and all the way up until today is Ernest Hemingway. You know, you read his stuff and, and, and it like, he was the guy who'd done things though. He'd been around the world. So when he's writing, he's believable because he'd been there, done that, and he was that guy, and I loved that.

That was something I was like, you know. I, and it came, it literally came through in the, in, in his, in his words. Like he had actually experienced these things. And I, I appreciate that. And I do, I think it conveys on the page if you've had those, if you take lived experiences and put 'em on there, it, it, it transfers to the reader for sure.

You know, especially with the medical stuff. You know, like I know people who will consult with doctors first when writing and a a, a joke I saw on the internet once. It was like an author's computer history is so weird. You'll have like, what is the expiration date of a can of tomato sauce from 1967 and also.

How long does it take for a person to bleed out if they're cut on their big toe diagonally? You know, like very specific questions. It, uh, it was a joke was like, dear FBI, I'm an author. So all these weird questions are, it's true novels. I'm, I'm clearly on, I'm clearly on some watch list. It used be my search history.

It's like, yeah, like how much is the fallout from a nuclear dirty bomb? Like, oh my God, this just got Right. Exactly. And I know, um, one of the things you said. Uh, which I'll caution people is, especially with realistic science fiction, you have leeway with the word fiction, right? Yeah. But one of my biggest pet peeves of all time is when a, especially a movie or a book has kind of like their own rules of that world that they then violate or stretch.

So if you have this kind of technology, but then you extend it to, and one of the things I hated most was like one of the movies series I was watching. It was all technology, realistic science, and then suddenly they kind of tried integrating magic this one time and then it doesn't make like it didn't fit in.

Mm-hmm. I, I hate when things are, they're, you can have fiction, but if you've set up boundaries within that, you have to follow those worlds rules. And so that's one of my pet pee. If you're gonna add in. Scientific facts that, 'cause I've seen some shows where this, like, they didn't need to add in the scientific fact, but they did, and then it was wrong.

Right? So if you're gonna go outta your way to add in information, make sure it's accurate, like you said. Yeah. Take the time and do their research. I know I, I was recently on a show talking about podcast creation and business and I talked about how everyone's hot to try to get out there as fast as possible.

That was one of my biggest mistakes as an author. The book series wasn't ready yet, but I was just like, I want it out. I want it out. I want it out. Right. W you it. It's pride. You want your creation out there. You wanna see the book cover, you wanna see it on Amazon or the internet. Like we take pride in that, but.

Take the time, slow down and make sure it's a good project. First. For, in the military, we had an expression, first time, quality impression. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. If you rush through it and then you had to end up rewriting the whole series or taking it down and republishing it, that's a lot of time.

And as we mentioned money, that you're wasting that. So take the time to make it a good product. I know, I get it. Every time I start writing a book, I'm like, I want this out now. And I hate anytime something delays me. My last book, God verse, indomitable Human Spirit, was supposed to be out half a year ago.

Uh, but it grew into a bigger project. And I said, you know what? I've learned my lessons the hard way. If it's growing and it still has more, let let it grow. You know, and just going back to the complicated, I thought immediately of Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, you know, one of the greatest novels of all time, right?

When she was 14. A story within a story with another story within it that was complicated. I was sure people were like this, this is hard to track. But that's one of the greatest things, and I, I really like the writing for yourself, not for others. Right? Write for yourself first. Uh, nowadays especially, we see a lot of people have tried to.

Say things about characters in their books or change things to appease certain audiences, or, or, or moving forward, they changed their books. And remember Nicholas Sparks King of Romance, right? I've, mm-hmm. I haven't read any of his books. I've watched all the movies, so I'm a hypocrite. I gotta read the books.

But one of his books in particular, uh, he wrote a tragic ending. And people were so upset that they wrote him all this mail, and he ended up rewriting and republishing the book with a different ending, or at least the movie. And for me, I lost some respect for him to a degree. You know, I've had people who say, Hey, Mr.

Whiskey, we, we see you really like to write tragedy. You like, uh, killing characters. You, you're gonna lose all your, your people who read your books because they don't like when characters die. I said, okay, but this is, this is the real world. People die, right? All right. Mm-hmm. We don't, mm-hmm. The real world.

There isn't this main character energy just plot armor, right? That's not real life. All right? If you want to have that in your anime or TV show for sure, if you wanna have that in your fictional book series. But I want my writing to be realistic. People die accidents happy, right? Like that's the reality of it.

And I'm not gonna change up that to appease people and say, all right, you know what one of my pet peeves is when they keep bringing a character back from the back, from the dead, because fans are gonna be unhappy if this character disappears. And it's like. Yeah, especially in TV shows and movies or books I'm reading or watching and I'm like, it gets to the point where I'm like, I'm not even able to mourn this character's death because you've shown that you're an author who's just gonna bring them back, bring them back.

So I think, you know, there's balance to be had. Yeah. You want the sales, you want people to like your stuff, but you should want them to like it. It's just like dating in real life. Right. You want them to like you, for you not for this front. You put out, yeah. You, you, you mentioned there, but there are times though that.

When writers kill off the main character, who's the only anchor for the plot. Right. Right. And then it, it then they've got nothing else. The other characters aren't strong enough to carry the plot. The last of us, I think if you wanna talk about contemporary stuff that's out there. When you look at the first season, even like the first season of the game, have you seen any of it or heard about it?

No. No, but you're spoiler warning for everyone we're gonna get into it. Oh yeah, yeah. We can get into this. So like, so it was a video game, the last of us, it takes it's, it's about apocalypse like mutants and things. I think it was with mushrooms or whatever it is. Anyway, the first you get the main character, the protagonist is Joel and everyone's connected to him.

He is got Ellie, he's taking care of her, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he creates this interesting father daughter dynamic. Well, and then comes, uh, the season two of the, of the, uh, season two of the, um, of the game. And they kill him off like within no time. The issue lies that she's not a, she's not the strong enough anchor for it to carry it on anyway.

It's like, so there is a problem in storytelling and they did the exact same thing and it pissed off everybody, by the way. And they're sales tanked and did the exact they did. They, so knowing that it happened five years ago, they roll out the TV show. They do the exact same thing in episode two to season two.

And it, it's, it, they're, they're this cratering and it's be, it's, it's like Game of Thrones. George was able to like do that perfectly, where you have Sean Bean, who's playing Stark and Ed Stark, you know, have you, have you, I'm not sure if you've seen Game of Thrones, but. Reddit, you know, you've got, again, he's notorious for just whacking people, but he's created a cast of characters that are equal in strength, right?

That can carry the plot along, that can drive the story. There just wasn't enough. When you go look and you, when you put it in contrast to the last of, there's just not that many strong characters, it's a, the cast isn't actually that vast. Where Game of Thrones, I mean, George has created this incredible world, right?

And uh, and again, all these multiple kind of characters that are on par with each other and that they all can carry the mantle of being a protagonist and carry on. And that's when you can kill a character that comes unexpected, who you think is, and by the way, it's shocking, but it also makes you really invested in that world.

Right? Right. And that's, I do that. I do that as well. Like I look at the, like you said, there's no plot armor for my characters. Uh, and that is, uh, for the most part, I, I definitely, the stories built around Gordon Vanzant, the series is, and so you're kind of following him. That's just across the series arc.

It's his, he, he's the guy, you're following him, but everyone else beneath him, very lovable characters are all up to get the ax. And I've taken out people and piss people off. But the reality is, if you're living in an apocalyptic world. That is what you can expect. You can expect somebody that's beloved that you're connected to, that's important.

Gone. I want the care, I want the readers to feel in shock, just like the characters feel in shock. I want them to feel that emotional loss, just like the characters are feeling that emotional loss. I also want them to be like, oh wow. They're looking around too, like what's going to happen? I. Because that's an apocalyptic world.

Yeah. They have no idea what's gonna happen around the corner. Like someone that they love and hold dear could get. And so it makes them anxious. I do that deliberately. I want them anxious, I want them nervous. I don't want them like knowing, oh, everything's gonna be fine. No, it's not gonna be fine. And some characters they love are gonna get smoked and that's how it is.

And some of it brutally and. I've gotten heat for it and like book two, I got a lot of heat for one of those characters I that I like, like I, I, I committed a, I broke a couple taboos on that one, but Right. Even my wife was mad at me when she was like reading it after I, you can't do that. I'm like, uh, I'm doing it.

Like, you can't do that. Like, I, it's happening. And, and, but it was also, it just wasn't done. It wasn't, it, it just wasn't done just to do it. It wasn't for, uh, it was done to motivate the protagonist, Gordon Van Z. That event shifted him as a character. It made him, his entire perspective changed in that world and his actions no longer were gonna be the actions he had before he realized he came outta, that he grew from that experience and like, okay.

Now to be more, I need to be more thoughtful about my decision making because I just lost this person and it was my fault. And again, it was a way for him to change as a character. And then every decision is different than it was before. Uh, but it was also very powerful. There was multiple reasons I did it.

Yeah. There are times though that a writer can knock off a character that is just not smart. You gotta have other characters that can carry the mantle if you're taking your protagonist out. The main person, if he's gone, who's carrying the torch, and are they strong enough of a character that people are gonna follow.

Yeah. And if that's your ending or your series has ended, uh, I, I personally don't believe in like. Or, you know, people really want a, a sequel and this or that. If, if you ended it, you know the way you want it. And that's that, that's that. You know, trust me, there are plenty of books I've read. I'm like, man, I wish there was more.

But you know, that's the story. That's that. And I think there's, I think you're right too. Yeah. I, when, when I, when I finished the end, I could have, I, the book books sold. I, I sold so many books and I was like, I could just smile, said, why don't you just keep it going? I'm like. It's not realistic. Like yeah, there's, there's only so many bullets you can dodge, like, right.

It just, it's just, it don't make it. I wanted to keep that sense of realism, uh, and to leave on a high note like. This is it. There's a finale. You know, this is the way the world looks, you know, and I left it with a lot of other very strong characters that I developed over that seven book series. And when it needed to end, it ended.

And I, I ended up continuing this series with just a spinoffs, with some other characters, became fan favorite characters. People wanted to kind of explore. You know their origin story and how they kind of, you know, intermixed with that main canon and those main characters and they were on their own journey and also exploring other parts of the country and things like that.

It was easy to, to expand the universe by just go not, not, not messing with those characters. I. Just going into other parts and creating characters. 'cause there's a whole world to deal with, right? If you build a world, you can have all kinds of fun, right? But for the main characters, when their time was done, I felt in my heart it was done.

I just didn't want this, like, nothing's worse than readers or viewers or whatever. Like, oh my God, this has gotten, it needs to end. This is bad. Like this is The Walking Dead is one of those, like, I'm, I'm gonna keep referencing apocalyptic fiction and, and story. Yeah. If it is like, okay, I think season fourteen's enough.

I think we're done. I think we're redundant. Like season eight or like the, the Flash series fell off. They kept making like, oh yeah, like it, like the problem was like you said, you can only d many both. Oh, here the, he's not the fastest man in life. Here's someone faster. Here's someone faster. Here's someone fa like, you know, come on.

How many, how many speeds there can we get that are faster? How many ways can we make the flash faster? So he is now on par with this other speed, you know, and then they're trying to make other villains and this and that. So. I mean, we've seen it in plenty of different forms of, of fiction. You know, it, it is like kind of with other series, you know, like people loved Iron Man and Captain America, especially the actors who play those.

Mm-hmm. They can only be that person for so long. I, you know, that's, that's realistic. Like, you know, we can't just keep making movie after movie. Like, even, even Batman, you know, eventually steps down as Batman. I mean, he, he gets old. I mean, that's just the truth of the world, you know? Yeah. So I think it's, it's cool.

Um. So what I wanna do is focus in here, you know, we've discussed a lot of points. What would be your main message? You know, why are you guesting on podcasts? You know, what is the message you wanna put forward? Yeah, I, I know you asked me before we jumped on and, uh, do I have any like, specific book to promote?

And I, I, I don't, I've got a great catalog of books for people to see, uh, go on my website@gmichof.com, Amazon. Some are sitting in bookstores in Barnes and Noble and whatnot. So I've got a lot of great books out there. I believe, uh, whether it's apocalyptic fiction westerns, which I really got into, I did really well with the Western genre by the way, really, really well.

I stuck to just kind of that, um, that really central western theme, you know, but I did and kind of. Include more kind of an anti-hero in a lot of those. And those books did really, really well for me. I was really, really excited. Yeah. And actually genre jumping, I was a little nervous at the time when I did it.

And uh, there was actually a lot of my audience that did jump over and continue to, to read the Western and uh, 'cause the Western is kind of apocalyptic anyway. You're kinda living in some, you know, the wild west. Some wasteland. Yeah, just they're, some of the themes can very be very similar and the characters are still rugged.

It's action adventure. So. I got some cross over there. Um, I've jumped in some other genres that are paranormal and not much of, not much of, not much of my audience jumped over for that, but I was introduced to some new readers and they jumped so. That's just me kind of exploring different, I've written horror as well, and just because I'm writing things that I want to write.

Yeah. That's kind of where I'm, I'm really blessed and I'm just, I'm doing what I wanna write and telling some really cool stories. Uh, what's interesting about the horror is that I, it got optioned, that's the craziest thing. So I did this apocalyptic horror story. It was a novel that I did. It's a part of, uh, it, the origin of that was it, it, uh, it's called Mother and I did that, uh, with Nicholas Stansbury Smith when he had, uh, what was it?

Uh, Kendall had a program years ago called Kendall Worlds where other writers could write into other writers, uh, universes. Right. And he had a series called The Extinction. Yeah, the Extinction Cycle. And, uh, Nick and I are friends and he's New York Times bestseller. He is done. He's got, he's got a book series out that's doing really well called HA Divers.

I encourage people to check it out. Mm-hmm. And so I wrote into his Extinction cycle series and it did really well. It was really cool. I had, I came up with this interesting like story of these, it's this apocalyptic world where these mutants are created from some like virus or whatever. Anyway, so it was more about these two twins that are serial killers on a farm.

So it was this kind of complete departure from the typical, he has a lot of military and they're fighting these variants and all this stuff's going on, so it has that kind of element to it, if you like military. And, but I was like, I'm gonna do something completely different. I'm gonna have like this, it's like a horror story where these like sadistic 13-year-old serial killers are on a farm and they're luring people to the farm.

It's where they slaughter them and it's. Complete departure, but people loved it. They were like, this is such a cool story. I mean, the fans of his series thought it was so cool because it was so different than everything else. Right. But it's, it, it was in his universe and they thought it was just an interesting take.

And that actually got optioned. Uh, and we were close. We'd actually gotten some money for, we got, we had raised 2 million. Uh, the script is already done. We had all that we were gonna film in Budapest, and then the SAG writer strike happened and that just kind of threw everything up in the air and yeah, everything went the shit.

And then it just, now I was just sitting on the back burner somewhere, but I never knew when I wrote the seat talking about taking risk. I think you and I were talking about that. That was just like, I'm gonna write this like crazy horror story about these, these sadistic twins and these people that encounter 'em and that does not end.

Like it's not a happy ending, let's just say that. Yeah. And uh, but it did really well and so much that it got picked up, um, uh, to be made into a movie. So yeah, you can take risks a as as the writer, but then you're do, do, again, taking the risk 'cause that's the story you wanna write. You're not trying to check the boxes like you're saying, like, I wanted to write a, this seemed like a really cool, exciting story.

Um, but yeah, I, I mainly am kind of doing podcast stores, like, uh, like I tell you because I just wanna, you know, if I can bring value to other writers by my experience, um, I'm a hybrid author. I've got books with Penguin, other big publishing houses also. Got, I've also self-published successfully. I've got a couple publishing companies I'm in some other adjacent companies that I'm starting that are all kind of adjacent to publishing and writing.

So I'm really mu, I've really immersed into it. So if I can bring any value to, to writers or aspiring writers, I'd love to do that. 'cause I was helped out right at the beginning, um, in my writing journey, meaning that after I'd hit self-publish on the end. By the way, that's an interesting, I had an agent for that book and then I fired her.

I fired her 'cause she was just a pain in the ass. Actually, I take that back, Margaret. I'm sorry. I didn't mean that, but, um, it was just like, it, it's, it wasn't going the way I wanted it to go. Right. And I fired her, which everyone said, you're crazy. It's hard to get an agent. What are you doing? I was like, I, I just didn't like it.

The beta readers were getting back to me and the beta readers I'd created were like really a core. Demo. Like they didn't think that she wanted to change big parts of the book, right? To kind of bring in an alignment with what like these publishers might be looking for. And I was like. No, my heart says, my gut says the story's good.

Right? I've given it out to a lot of ba. They love the story. They love it. They're connecting with it. I'm not writing for everybody. I'm writing to a key. This is my audience. I know the people I'm writing for, and I'm writing. That's, that's, I'm not trying to write for everybody. Yeah. And I hit self-publish on it, and then it just, it just took off.

And then, uh, but yeah, like. If I can bring value to anybody from my, from my story, um, and where I've come and my journey, I, I, you know, I'm here to help, help do that. Oh yeah. So after I self-published, I was competing with this guy, Doug Richards, New York Times bestseller, and, uh, guy, multiple New York Times bestseller, and he and I were competing in the charts and I was like, Cyrus reached out to him and said, Hey, you got any advice for a new author?

He's like, absolutely. And we found out he was also in San Diego. He goes, let me take you to lunch. Like, all right. Wow. So I went to lunch with him and he just like opened up, told me, gave me all this incredible advice I think he had been with at that time with McMillan and uh, was talking to me about it.

I hadn't yet got my contract from Penguin, but he was like invaluable. Like when I did get the contract from Penguin and he was, we sat down again, we were just talking. It was just so nice to have somebody like a mentor like that to kind of guide me through that beginning phase. 'cause you can make a lot of mistakes.

And Right. I've done that. Yeah. And it can, and it can cost time and money, you know? Mm-hmm. What you don't want it to do is cost reputation, and that's the worst thing. Uh, and so he helped me out a lot. And so like if I can bring that, I've been doing it since, if I can bring that to new authors or aspiring authors, I'd love to share, you know, my advice with people.

Yeah. And you know, it's, don't be afraid to fire people. I know when I mentioned Peter Gunn earlier, he was doing epic poetry. For those of you who don't know what it is, it's linked lyrical poetry. It's a very specific format. Structure. I couldn't imagine writing it. Um, I, I. Writing plain English is enough for me.

And, um, he had to make up some words in order to keep that format and still get the theme across. And his editors were like, Nope, no one's, this is a made up word. You can't use it. He's like, people are gonna understand what it means. There's enough context. And he ended up, he fired a lot of people. You know, sometimes you gotta, you gotta do that.

Sometimes you're gonna have disagreements with people. Right. Sometimes, especially if you're, like we mentioned earlier. If your writing style is unique, if your formatting is unique, uh, still legible, understandable, right? But if it's something very different, you're gonna get that resistance. So, uh, and in, in your case, you've been very successful despite having to fire people.

Right? So don't be afraid. Yeah. But there was a second time, yeah, real quick. There was a second time though. There are consequences, like I have really positive consequences from, from firing her. I then got another answer. So I get picked up by Penguin. Everything's going smooth. They might have mishandled some stuff here and there, but the point of I'm gonna make is, and I get picked up by another agent, this guy in LA and I am very impatient now, and I terminate him thinking I'll have the same result.

I, I think I was too hasty in terminating him and because I was trying to push him to get me some, some things done, and I, he was just like, just, just be patient. It's fine. We're gonna work this out. We're gonna, this we're line up. And I, that is where I had a little bit of hubris going on at the time, and I, because I got this, I scored this really big deal with Penguin and I was like, I don't know.

I just, I got impatient. So you went back and you were talking about patience earlier, right? Yeah. I should have been more patient, more thoughtful, and I did it for two different reasons when I let Margaret go. That was because that was genuine, based upon wanting to change a book. But my gut's telling me, because these readers like no.

I can't do it. And she, she much told me like, I'm not gonna represent you. I was like, okay, I'll let you go. The other one was absolutely me in, in with a sense of hubris, not listening when I should have been patient. And then I, I probably lost out on opportunities because of that. So, you know, like two different reasons.

Like my reason with Margaret was completely like, legit with, uh, the other person was not. And I, that is one thing that I, I've. Like I, it's made me more thoughtful as a person going forward in my career. Like, don't, don't be so hasty. So not all things have worked out for me. I do learn still. Right. Well, you, you jumped in right?

As I was about to say, you know, don't just fire without listening first. Right. Always. Yeah. There you go. Seek that counseling and advice. Listen first, make educated decisions. Um, yeah, and I like that you said like, like I mentioned earlier, you know, you're hot to try to get it out, especially if you've had success already.

All the more to like, keep it going, keep it going. And, um, yeah, I, I hope everyone found this inspirational. I know I did. I had a, um, one of the first books I started writing that I ended up never publishing. It's been on the back burner, was a controversial, uh, western and it was funny. Part of the reason I paused from it was because.

I had gone from hard science fiction to a western. I went from atomic physics to the bone archer and drinking alcohol and shooting guns. Like, it was such a, not just the genre, but the education level, the writing style, the dialect. Mm-hmm. I was like, I need to, I need to research this. Uh, 'cause like I, like we mentioned earlier, I wanted an accurate Western.

Um, and, and what I will say is, uh. I don't gotta, I gotta bring that back out. So that's gonna be, you know, one of the things about being an author is, uh, every time you start writing something, you end up making other books along the way somehow. Or ideas, like, I've got, I've got a list of 80 books I want to write, and, um, half of them are, some of them have chapters, some of them have pages, some of them are almost done, some of them.

Haven't been started yet. Uh, it just, it keeps building on itself. I think, you know, the more you write, the easier it becomes, the more you want to write, and I think, you know. Mm-hmm. One of the pieces of advice that you kind of mentioned subtly that I haven't followed, though I have found it helpful when I have followed it, is, uh, read, you know, if you wanna get better at writing read, because.

What you'll find is we talked about unique writing styles, unique formats. The more you read, the more you discover certain ways things are written that might be very useful for your book. If you're having trouble finding, how do I wanna write this? How do I wanna convey this? Or what style do I want?

There are so many, I mean, there are millions of books out there, right. And I have discovered the more you read, you'll find certain ways to convey things, different writing styles. Mm-hmm. Make sure you read. In fact, you should just go ahead to G michael hof.com and start reading today. There are over 40 books there for you to start reading.

So ladies and gentlemen, we'll have that link and description below. But Mr. Hoff, I'd like to thank you for coming on the show. You know, it's great to talk to another writer and hear the good and the bad and the ugly of it all. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, I highly encourage you to check out that website, find.

A book for you. You know, there's post-apocalyptic western horror paranormal, and who knows, maybe one day, Mr. Hoff, you might end up doing a romance. You know, you never know.

Yeah. I don't wanna a, anything's possible, I guess. Yeah. But, but there'll probably be some people dying in it though. That's the whole thing. It'd be one of those kind of really odd, uh, romance books where people die. I, I've got one of those on the back burner. Trust me. So. You should write that Western. I'm telling you, you should write it.

It's a fun genre to get into. Yeah. I'm doing something very unique with it. Uh, something that's, I think is gonna give me a lot of hate from some parties, but I think it's, there's a lot of Westerners that I read, I just felt like were kind of copy and paste and I wanna do something that hasn't done before.

Mm-hmm. Like we've discussed, I'm gonna be taking a risk with it, but I'm, I'm excited for it. So, and, uh, you know what, we might have to get together again on the show when it, when it comes out, and I'm sure you'll, I'd love to, you'll probably have like 10 more books by that time. So Yeah, I don't know about that, but I'd love to.

I've, I'm, I'm actually interested hearing about it, so yeah, I, I expect a children's book for your grandkids by that time. Oh my God. So you're really pushing that that far, huh? Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, thank you for coming on the show. I hope, like I said, that you've inspired some people. You know, like you said, writing is more than just creating entertainment and just, it's also a form of, of therapy for ourselves, for our readers, and it's something that can connect us in different ways.

So I really appreciate you putting out all this content into the world. Of course it's, I, I love it. That's what I do. So, um, thank you man, for your time. I really appreciate it. Thank you for the opportunity to be on your show.