Thriving Through Family Crisis: Navigating Addiction, Faith, And Parenthood

In this powerful and meaningful episode, I sit down with Karen Dittman, who shares her powerful journey of resilience, faith, and unending parental love in the face of extraordinary family challenges. 

Ms. Dittman opens up about her unexpected journey back into parenting during her mid-40s, navigating the complexities of raising both her own children and grandchildren amid the global chaos of COVID-19. Her family’s life changed dramatically when her daughter spiraled into addiction and a harmful relationship, leaving Ms. Dittman to step in as the primary caregiver to her granddaughter. 

With this, Ms. Dittman discusses the emotional turmoil of witnessing her daughter's struggle with fentanyl addiction and domestic abuse, highlighting the critical role faith played in carrying her through this turbulent time. She explains how her relationship with God deepened profoundly, giving her the strength and clarity to handle fears, anxieties, and uncertainties without falling into despair. 

This episode is great for young adults, parents, grandparents, or anyone struggling to balance personal wellness with the intense demands of family life. The subject of abusive relationships and drug addiction is also something that almost everyone can relate to at some point, whether through lived experience or through someone they know.

https://karenadittman.com/

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Transcript

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey, and you know, whether you've read the Bible or not, a lot of the stories are known to all people. They're just common stories, and they're good parables, and the story of the prodigal son, we all know it.

Spends his inheritance early, you know, ends up failing in life, and then returns back, head down. You know, and that is just one example. And today we're going to be talking kind of along those lines of stepping up as parents, even after our children are grown, doesn't mean they've grown, you know, so we're going to be talking about sometimes the extra responsibilities and roles we take on as parents, as parents for life to our children through all the good and all the bad, that unconditional love.

And we're going to talk about the difficulties that come with that. So life advice for us as parents. Making sure we take care of ourselves as well, especially y'all mothers out there. Y'all will burn out and just give, give, give, and you need to take care of yourself a little bit. So we're here today with a guest who has done just that, who is raised, is, has a house full of kids  and children who are grown up, who are, who are not grown up.

And we're going to get into the, as she calls it, the hamster wheel of life. So Ms. Karen Dittman, so great to have you here. Thank you, Mr. Whiskey. It is so good to be here with you today.  Yeah, so I alluded a lot to your life story there, so tell us a little bit about that. We know that, I know that it started back in 2020 when COVID came, changed a lot of people's lives, years included.

Yeah. Um, and of course I have, um, been raising kids for, gosh, my son's going to be 26 next month. And so it's been a while. We've been around the block a couple times. Um, so I have two kids who are in their 20s. And then, surprise, surprise, God decided I was going to have a baby when I was in my mid 40s. So I've got my older two kids are adopted.

So I've got them. I've got a 10 year old daughter, and I'm raising my six year old granddaughter. And then I've got another three year old granddaughter who comes over and I watch her a couple days a week.  But yeah, going back to 2020, you know, nobody knew. What was coming, right? It's so funny thinking back because my daughter actually sent me this little article, um, or something she found and she sent me a message and it's just like, is this here?

Is this? I'm like, it's fine. It's not a big deal. Don't worry about it. Well, she was right. I was wrong. Um,  and so  we, um,  You know, March and, uh, we had been out of town, came home. Um, my husband got sick almost immediately. We discovered later that he had had COVID, um, but he was sick for six weeks. Um, and during that time, it was just. 

You know, nothing, nothing was anything we could have prepared for. Right.  We were dealing with food shortages. We were dealing, my son was working at Walmart. He was the dairy manager. He sent me a, um, A video of literally nothing in the back of the store that they could put out.  Um,  and we were dealing with what ifs and kids coming home from school.

My youngest was in, um, kindergarten at the time,  came home for spring break and never went back  and. Um, you know, a lot of people went through that and then we had, um,  just the anxieties and the what ifs and all of these weird urban legends going around that, um, my older daughter started like, just kind of  freaking out about, well, what's going on in the world and are they going to just ship us all off to these quarantine camps and, you know, you know, because we didn't know.

And we had never, never in any of our lives had like, You have to shut down and stay home for two weeks straight, let alone, you know, anything. So we didn't know what to expect. It was crazy. So my daughter who had, um, her daughter was like, um,  Hmm.  Okay. So she was almost two at the time.  So, and my daughter was just in a really, really bad relationship.

Um, We didn't know the extent to which her boyfriend was really being abusive towards her. And so she started calling us every day and say, can I drop my daughter off? Can you pick her up? And it turned into every day, my granddaughter was coming over and watching her. And so my daughter and her boyfriend were just  falling deeper and deeper into their own addictions to cope with things that were going on in the world.

And.  We were just all like, I don't know what's going on, but we're just, you know,  you know, they even, I live in Colorado. They even shut down the playgrounds. So we couldn't take the kids out to the park, so it was just, yeah, so life was just crazy and so we just started, you know, this hamster wheel started spinning and I just felt like I, I want to get off and I could never get off of it. 

For sure, and you talk about, you know, your daughter being in an abusive relationship, you're not understanding the extent of that.  You know, turning to negative de stressors, you know, like drugs. So what did that ultimately lead to?  Um, so she was in this relationship,  um,  because the relationship was. So important to her, you know, there was a lot of hiding what was really going on so we didn't know the extent of it other than we Wanted her to kick him out and she would occasionally kick him out and then bring him back  So but yeah about a year later.

So in  Actually,  anyway at some point  He had hit her and broken her nose and she told the story that  he, she kicked him out and then he was trying to come back in and kick the door open and it hit her in the face. Um,  and so she had to have surgery to repair that. And, um. As she was recovering from, you know, the pain of nose surgery, which is not fun.

Um, I've heard from many people it's extremely painful to recover from. Um, so she was dealing with that and, um,  and then.  We didn't realize the extent of his drug use, but apparently, um, he said to her one day, look, I've got something can help you with the pain. Do you want it? And she's like, yeah, I'll take anything.

So he gave her fentanyl. And so that started her on a very highly addictive cycle that. It turned out down the road when we discovered the extent of his drug use, um, we realized that he had been using meth. He had been using, we didn't even know what else, um, we were like, you're not welcome back in our house.

You're not welcome around here. And then, um, about a month later, her, she, um, Asked us one night. Will you just watch my daughter overnight? I'm gonna go out with some friends I'm gonna go out with my girlfriends. We're gonna stay in a hotel We're just gonna do fun stuff together and we're like sure we'll watch her overnight  And then my daughter didn't come back  and it was months before she came back So during all that time we were filing for guardianship so we could you know do what we needed to do to take care of our granddaughter  and it was Again, just more completely unexpected, crazy stuff that when she did finally come back, she kind of came clean and she shared with me all of these stories and she has given me permission to share all of this.

So it's not like I'm trying to throw her under the bus.  But she has, you know, she shared what had been going on and the drug use and she asked for help with getting into rehab,  which we were happy to help her with. But unfortunately, that kind of She started a rehab relapse cycle as she was like, okay, I can do this on my own.

Oh no, I don't have the people I need who would support me. And, and so that led to us asking her to step away and not come back until she was clean and sober,  which was really hard.  Right. So when you talked about her, you know, dropping off her child and then disappearing, was that radio silence, like no texts or calls or anything? 

No, it wasn't complete radio silence. Um, she would, um, like text me from time to time. She would say, you know, Oh, I'm coming back. And there came a point in which it was like, stop making empty promises.  I'm not going to believe that you're coming back until I see you at the house. Um, and so during that time, yes, I would occasionally get texts.

There were times it would go longer and longer. And eventually I'd be like,  and you know, I'm spinning in my mind with all of the imaginations of what's going on, where she must be. Has she been trafficked? Has she been, you know, caught up in something else? Um, did somebody kill her? Drop her body in the mountains.

You know, I,  I, we just had no way of knowing where she was and what was going on.  And you said that your granddaughter was about two years old at this time? So at this point, it was right after my granddaughter's third birthday when all of this happened. Yeah. Yeah, so she wasn't yet at that age really where she was asking like, where's my mom?

Or do you think that she kind of knew her mom was missing at some point? I'm not familiar with three year olds intelligence level Yeah, I mean she knew That her mom was supposed to be with her, but was gone. Um, but she had also been so used to just being at our house. And at that point, um, our daughter had moved back in with us.

So, um,  her daughter was just like, um, in fact, was even sharing a bedroom with my daughter, um, so that she was, um, you know, so she was just kind of part of our family. Um, but I do remember there was a day when  I was like, it had been. Um, and I was like, Oh, my gosh, is she gone? What's happened? And that same day, my granddaughter looked at me and said, Will you be my mom?

I was like, Wow, she knows that something has shifted and she was like,  will you just be my mom now instead of me having to worry about whether or not she's going to be back and be my mom.  So that was a, that was tough.  Right. And is your daughter clean now and has been sober, right? Yes, she is. She's been sober for going on two years now.

It is totally, um, by the grace of God and answered prayers. Um, we.  We didn't, um, you know, we, I, I had gotten to the point where I had to just not even hold on to hope anymore because I had seen my hopes rise and fall and rise and fall and rise so many times it was like, I just have to hand that hope completely over to God.

I couldn't work on, you know, I couldn't.  I couldn't keep hoping myself, so yeah, so, but lots of other people were like, Karen, we're praying for you guys, we're praying for her, we're gonna just hold on to that hope for you, which was a beautiful thing for me.  And it's something we see often that a lot of people understand that, you know, AA can be effective, that rehab can be effective, but there's a lot of people, most people, that not, who go through that cycle of clean and then, you know, not, and then relapsing.

We've seen it. I've had guests on the show who have relapsed and sobered back up five times. I have guests who have over 50 times. So it's not always a one and done kind of deal. But what I'm most curious about is your granddaughter is now at that age where she is, you know, like first, second grade, kind of can talk and learn about stuff.

So Is she aware? Have y'all shared this story with her? Or, and if not, is it something that you and your daughter are going to talk to her about? Um, in a way that is kind of, you know, cautionary,  that's a really good question. And I think there will come a time at which we'll have to be a little bit more, um, open, you know, right now, it was just last spring when my daughter and my granddaughter started spending time together and reengaging.

Um, so my granddaughter still lives with us, um, but she now has. You know, on at least a weekly basis, once or twice a week, she will, you know, her mom will pick her up after school. They'll spend some time together.  So she knows that things have shifted, that her mom is back in her life after not being in her life for a while.

Um, and She is trying to navigate, we're all trying to navigate kind of the different expectations, different parenting styles,  different boundaries in different homes, you know, just like any couple or any family that has, you know, like the kids have to go from one house to another and there's different rules at different homes and things.

So we're trying to navigate some of that. I am sure there will be a time Um, when we're sharing a little bit more openly with her, um, just about what really happened. Um,  but for now, it's, you know, being aware of what is she emotionally able to handle.  And also for me, there's a sense of, I want to be able to talk to her in a way where it doesn't sound like I'm trying to throw her mom under the bus.

Right, exactly. Because we really are in a place. Like just like right now, like in the last couple of months where it's, well, my mom, you know, will let me have a TV in my room and you won't. So my mom is better. Um, you know, things like that.  My mom will take me to the store and let me buy whatever I want and you won't.

Um, and you know, there's things like that. So, um, It's for me to turn around and say, yeah, but your mom actually left you would be feel like I'm trying to make myself look better, you know, which I don't want to do. I want her to understand there's there's differences and there are different.  Expectations in our, our homes and we are different people, we're going to parent differently.

I don't want her because she's trying to do this. Well, I love my mom better than you. I don't want her to think I'm trying to make her love me more again. So. Yeah, it's, it's a tricky thing to navigate. It definitely is. You know, I was gonna say, you have to tell her at some point because you don't want it to be where she grows up and then one day she's trying to research different whiskeys.

She's like, Mr. Whiskey, a couple of nukes, Karen Dietman. And  she listens to this episode and she's like, huh?  What happened? Right, right. So, but I totally understand that having that, you know, tactful approach and that war on favoritism. Um, and. Yeah, you don't have to answer if it's going to be a confrontational question, but are you and your daughter Butting heads on on how to parent her and if is there kind of that  issue now of Who raised her more and you know, she's the biological mother, but who was more of a parent  Now, we're really not having any kind of those conflicts over this.

Um,  it's, and again, it's kind of like just sort of a new thing, this awareness that her daughter kind of has different experiences and different expectations. So  and my daughter has just been crazy busy with her work. You know, when you've, when you've gotten sober and you've got a job and you're trying to, now you've got a house or a.

apartment you need to pay for. Um, so my daughter is working a lot of hours and so her time with her daughter is a lot more limited right now. Um, but I know that she and I are going to have to find some time when we can be together and just have some conversations about. What does this look like for us co parenting as opposed to I'm doing this and then you're doing this?

So we're gonna and and she and I are able to have these conversations pretty openly  And be just very honest and respectful with each other. So that's a it's it's been an amazing Restoration and reconciliation in my relationship with my daughter that I could say we can have these conversations Openly because there was a time when we couldn't have right  So, do you feel like it's never going to shift back to a family dynamic of grandparent granddaughter?

It's going to kind of stay, because of its foundation, a co parenting situation more so than a grandparenting situation?  I really don't know. I mean, we all dream and imagine and hope for the day when our granddaughter will just be able to move back in with her mom, but we also know that's kind of a slower transition.

It's not going to be like a drop her off one day and we're done. So you know, it's, it's like. But we'll see how it works out. We'll see what happens. She may, and especially right now because of where my daughter lives, it's nowhere near my granddaughter's school. So, you know, there's the school stuff, there's, there's just a lot of practicalities.

So,  we'll see. It's an ironic situation, in my opinion, because typically it's the grandparents are the lenient, spoiling ones, and they throw you back to their parents. And now it's, it's actually the opposite in your case. But it's more of a, it's the primary caretaker is the more strict one. But do you feel like in, at least in your personal observation, that your daughter is being more lenient with her granddaughter?

As in a form of guilt and to make up for what happened.  I don't know. Um, I don't think so. I think there's and you know, I'm making some assumptions, but I think there is, um,  in a sense, because her daughter is a lot like her. It's harder to set boundaries with certain types of people. Um, so I think I don't think it's so much out of guilt as it is.

Um,  this sense of it's really hard to say no, um, and sometimes it feels easier to say yes to a demand like last weekend or, yeah, it was last weekend, um, when my daughter had been, um, spent an afternoon with, um, my granddaughter and dropped her off. Um, my daughter left her. Coat here. And so the next day, I think it was Saturday and my husband went to, took, you know, our granddaughter and went to take the coat back to my daughter and they get there.

And my husband was hoping to like, have a moment to park in the parking lot and text her and say, she wants to stay with you, but it's okay if you say no, but he pulls up in the parking lot and she's right out there. She's right outside. And so, you know, her daughter's like, Hey, can I hang out with you? And she's like, okay.

Okay, sure, but she really was exhausted and she was trying to do a bunch of stuff and it was really it would have been better for her to say no, but in the moment, it didn't feel like a good thing to say no. Right. And so, um, so a little while later, she's just texting my husband like, Can you come pick her up?

Because I'm really tired. And I wasn't expecting her to want to stay. And he's like,  You, you actually could have said no, but we, um, and I just got home and I'm really tired. So no, I can't turn around and come back and pick her up again. Right. So, you know, so it's just like this sense of sometimes it feels easier to say yes, cause you're avoiding the conflict.

But, and I mean, I know I've done that so many times myself, so there is no, no shame sent anybody's way over that.  It feels easier to say yes. And then suddenly I'm having to bear the burden of my yes, instead of what would have actually turned out to feel easier to have said no, when I knew I should have said no. 

Yeah. And I want to do circle back to the abusive boyfriend. Is he now out of the picture? Cause I know we mentioned he was in, out, in, out. So where is he? Yeah, so there was a time, um, when she literally, uh, left him stranded and walked away, um, and she has not gone back to him since. Um, he even at one point reached out to her again.

It was after she had gotten sober when she was like getting her feet back under her and started telling her, Oh, you know, you were the best. thing that ever happened to me, we should get back together. And she was like, are you crazy? No, I am not that I'm not going back to that again. No, thank you. So she was smart enough to say, say no to that.

So he is, he's out of the picture now.  Yeah. So we we've heard a lot of your story just now about what you've kind of been through the past few years. So let's get into the, why, you know, we're hearing this. Why are you guesting on podcasts? You know, what is the outcome of all of this?  Yeah, so I am very aware that, um,  my story and the things that I have, um, the pains that I've experienced, um, can help other people because  I have managed to not, you know, I'd like to say I've not, I've learned to not just survive, but thrive and not in spite of it all, but because of it all.

Um, so I've gotten to the point where I have just. really engaged deeply in my relationship with God because I had to. I've had to rely on Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be here with me all the time and guiding me and supporting me. And that has taken me to a new and deeper level of of life and thriving.

Um, while all of this was going on, starting in November of 2020, um,  I started writing a book that came out last November, um, called Thriving in Grace, and it's about wellness from a biblical perspective, but it's about really also How God's grace can step in and God, by His grace and power, can change us and change our lives, um,  and overcome the things that are just impossible for us, but nothing's impossible for Him. 

Yeah, I know you've mentioned faith quite a bit here. So how did all of this affect your faith? I know you talked about, in terms of hope, it kind of, you know, went in and out with the situation, and you had a lot of people praying for you.  You yourself praying. So how did this whole journey affect your faith? 

Um, my husband likes to say when we are suffering and we and we are experiencing difficult things in life We have a choice we can either Turn away from God and blame him or we can turn towards God and trust him and find What he has for us in it.  And so  I chose to turn towards God. I chose to,  um, really rely on God for strength and for peace and for all of the things that I needed in the middle of it.

Um, instead of going, well, if God really loved us, then we would never suffer. The reality is we are going to have hard stuff in life and  I can either Try to suck it up and suffer through it, or I can find out that, Hmm, you know what? Jesus actually suffered  deeply and he understands. He knows what I'm going through.

And so I just had to turn to God and, And really find all that I needed in my faith and in my relationship with God.  And I know you have the faith based books like you mentioned. I mean, who should really check those out and look into those?  You know, I would say that anybody who feels like I'm stuck, I've got stuff going on, and I, you know, I don't know how to get over this.

I need a new way. I'm tired of trying harder to change. I need to try something different. That would be the person who would benefit from this. Um, the, the perspective of wellness is really a very holistic sense. It looks at our physical, emotional, mental, spiritual selves, as well as, um, what we call the way we enter the world or the way we relate to the world through relationships, finances, and our vocation.

So it looks at all of these areas of our lives.  And if you're feeling stuck in anything, you can find grace and find how to thrive in the middle of it.  And in addition to the books, I know one of the resources you offer is your quiz. Tell us a little bit about this quiz. You know, a lot of people are like, a quiz?

You know, I'm not studying. Yeah, and I've done a few different online quizzes over the years. Like, I've developed some quizzes. Um, so this is one that I've just finished this week. Um, it's called how fast is your hamster wheel spinning? And it looks at kind of like what are the things that are going on in your life that are making that hamster wheel spin?

Because sometimes we feel like I'm stuck on this thing and I'm spinning and I'm spinning and I want to get off and it won't stop so I can't get off. Um, and so I had to find through all of the things that were going on in my life, um, over the last five years that I didn't have to get off the hamster wheel to find relief.

I just had to discover that Jesus was on the hamster wheel with me. Um, so anyway, this quiz looks at what are the things that are spinning your hamster wheel? How is that impacting your life? And do you have any habits that are helping to slow it down, or do you have some things that you need to look at?

Um, so I just published that quiz at, um, my website. It's, um, gosh, I need to put it up on my Karen A. Dittman website. Um, but it's on, uh, myquiz. numberonefit wellness. com too, so.  Yeah, we'll have all the links in the description below that way. You know, people can find you, whether it's the quiz or the books.

In addition, you also do speaking and keynotes, correct? Mm hmm. I do. I do. Yeah. I'm working on lining up some speaking events for the coming year. So, um,  I can't tell you exactly when I'm going to be where, but I'm working on some stuff. Right. And there's just two more things I want to address before we sign off here.

The first being with your daughter in the first year of her sobriety, really, just a little bit past that. I mean, how is your mental health doing as well as hers and the whole family in general with, uh, kind of fear and anxiety that she's still in that sensitive time period of relapsing. And again, you can relapse at any time.

It doesn't matter how long you've been sober, but especially that first year or two. Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, I would say that I am,  I am optimistic. I know that she is a strong woman. She has a strong, strong character. She has been through so much and she knows. That she is, um, doesn't want to go back to the, the horrible things that she was experiencing.

Um, so I'm generally optimistic, but it's not unusual. There are fears that come up. And when they do, I know I've learned that with all of these emotions, you know, my fears, I can't just go, Oh, don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. I have to actually kind of acknowledge them and go, okay, this is real.  This is genuine.

It could happen. And I'm just going to hand it back over to God. And ask him to hold that for me and not ruminate on it, but also not try to deny it.  And then, if I heard you correctly, your oldest son is also living with you currently? Yep, yep, he is. He's had to move back in with us a couple years ago. So  So as a parent,  how do you cope with these feelings, these accusations sometimes in your head from yourself, or even from other parents and co workers?

The idea of failing as a parent, that you have two full grown children of yours still living with you, how do you deal with that as well as trying to put forward more growth for them while supporting them, so not necessarily enabling them to just live with you and not have a life, but trying to nurture and comfort them while also preparing them to get back out there. 

Great question. I, um, have had to learn that  my children, no matter how old they are, whether they're 10 or 25, are responsible for themselves.  And,  Their choices do not reflect on me or on how, on who I am. I, for a long time, invested myself and my identity in  being a good mom and looking good by making my kids look good.

I homeschooled my older two kids. There is so much unspoken pressure to have your kids turn out better than they would have if they went to school when you're a homeschooling parent. Yeah. And.  My kids didn't turn out the way homeschool kids are supposed to turn out, right? Um, but  I have had to just let go of taking responsibility for other people's choices. 

I'm not going to take responsibility for any of your choices in life. Why would I take responsibility for somebody just because they're, you know, and, and yes, there is a sense of I need to be a responsible parent. I can't just let my 10 year old go off and. You know, be a feral child and do whatever she wants, you know, there are some responsibilities.

I'm not saying don't take responsibility to teach and train and disciple my kids, but there comes a point at which if they choose to walk away from the things that I invested in them, that's not on me. And I had to come to that realization. And if somebody else wants to put it on me,  that's their perception, but I'm not gonna own it.

I'm not gonna own up to anybody else's perception of me as a parent. I am responsible for myself and my relationship with God. And at some point, I have to turn them over to God. So, that's just where I've had to go. Amen to that. You know, I  Personally, I've got a lot cut out for me because I plan on homeschooling as well.

I just feel like the American public education system and even the private education system Uh is is not what it used to be. It is more of an indoctrination It is not does not prepare people to be adults at all. It is not Really teaching at all. I have a whole list of criticism with it. So I plan on homeschooling and I definitely thought the same thing that there's going to be that pressure. 

All right. So there's going to be this, uh, oh, you know, your kid is X, Y, and Z because he's homeschooled or she's homeschooled. I am mentally preparing now for that, for that battle, uh, because I know all my friends who are my same age and looking at being parents, they're all putting their kids in real school, as it's called.

So, we will see, but what I want to say is, uh, Ezekiel,  In the book of Ezekiel from the Bible, one of my favorites, and I quote a lot from it, this story that  God calls Ezekiel to be the watchman of Israel. And what he says is, you know, if you do not tell people that something is bad and they do it, then their blood is on your hands as well.

But if you told them what is right, and they choose to do wrong still, you have done what you needed, and you know, your life will be saved. And they will get the fate that is theirs. So I think it's the same thing with parenting, like you said. If you've given them that strong foundation, especially once they're, they're completely grown, but even, you know, teenagers do what they want, kids do what they want.

You know, if you have tried everything you can to make sure that they are well educated on what is right and wrong, and help guide them, as well as help guide them after their mistakes. You know, then you have done what you have done. So  I, I appreciate what you said, and then I'd love for you to leave us with a Bible quote.

You know, I love for our faith based guests to leave us with a Bible quote straight from the heart on the spot, you know, so what would that be for us?  I, um, have hung onto for a long time, um, Psalm 27 verses 13 and 14, and I have a tendency to mix up translations when I'm quoting it. Um,  but it says, um, I would have despaired if I did not believe I would see the goodness of God in the land of the living. 

Wait for the Lord, be strong, and take heart, and wait for the Lord.  And that I have held on to, and I have seen God meet me right there so many times.  Yeah, by how long you have hidden his word in your heart as as we are called to do so I Appreciate that that's actually a quote that no one else has shared yet on my show So especially appreciate that and ladies and gentlemen, I encourage you to go  Look that up on your own time as well and give it a read and see how it speaks to you.

But,  Ms. Dittman, I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your story. You know, it's not easy, especially as parents, you know, when your kids struggle with drug addiction, with alcoholism, with abusive relationships. All you want to do is take them out of that situation, and so it's hard. Because you're kind of, you have to be a bystander to some degree.

So appreciate you coming on to help other parents out, other grandparents out and future parents as well. So I appreciate you for your time today.  Thanks so much for inviting me on your podcast, Mr. Whiskey. It has been a great conversation.