Marriage And Parenting With Faith- Teaching Depth

Another shoutout to the wonderful Steve Wright for today's connection- via his event, I met Justin Workman, who is joining me today to discuss faith, personal transformation, and the power of living with purpose. From childhood experiences in church to a period of atheism, Mr. Workman shares his deeply personal journey of doubt, discovery, and spiritual awakening. At a breaking point in his marriage, his wife’s call to seek God became the catalyst for a renewed relationship with faith—one that reshaped his life, marriage, and fatherhood.

The conversation dives into the importance of depth in faith, distinguishing between religious routine and genuine spiritual connection. Mr. Workman and I explore the challenges many face when encountering hypocrisy in religious communities and how personal faith must be built on God’s word rather than human imperfection. They also reflect on biblical wisdom, discussing figures like Jonah and Paul, and the significance of love, forgiveness, and trust in relationships. Mr. Workman shares a lot from the New Testament, and I share a lot from the Old Testament, so we end up covering both sides of the Bible.

This episode is packed with raw honesty, humor, and profound insights on how faith impacts marriage, parenting, and personal growth. Whether you’re a believer questioning your path, someone seeking deeper understanding, or simply intrigued by spiritual conversations, Mr. Workman’s story offers encouragement and wisdom. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on the meaning of faith, the role of discipline, and why God’s timing is always perfect.

https://www.facebook.com/justinkworkman

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/leading-with-values-workplace-friendships-and-romance/id1657865479?i=1000662273602

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Transcript

 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Couple of Nukes. As always, I'm your host, Mr. Whiskey. And my guest is no ordinary man today. He's a great guy. The reason he's here is we met on a virtual event courtesy of Steve Wright.

And I'll have the episode that Steve and I recorded about leading the workplace with values. Very insightful. We took a look at how, how remote work changed the industry and how the younger generations care about morals and company missions more than the product itself. Very interesting stuff. But  through that, I met Justin Workman.

He's here with us. And I don't even remember what we were talking about. We talked about fish on pizza. We talked about.  Donuts, London, somewhere along the way, faith got involved. I don't know how, or why, but I remember Justin was talking about faith, I think he mentioned Paul and all this, and I said,  Well, I run a Christian show, and I love My episodes were, in fact, the episode that came out yesterday in the recording world here was hearing God's voice and, uh, you know, giving more to him.

And I started that episode by saying I love talking to other believers. There's a, as we call it, a synergy there. Yeah. And I think it's so important as a believer to have conversations with other believers and to listen to other believers, share their testimony and their journey. You know, just as alcoholics gather at AA. 

To help support one another and vent to one another so believers should meet up with one another whether that's through podcasting or local church events Hearing other people especially during your struggles can help So we're here with Justin to talk about his journey of faith and where it goes from there, you know Well, let God as people like to say Jesus take the wheel on that one.

Yeah for sure Well, it's, it's nice to be here. I appreciate you having me on. It's very cool, like you said, to be able to share, um, faith journey, testimony, all of that. Very cool. I've actually had a lot of opportunity lately to kind of share testimony and, and some of that faith journey. So, I don't know, it's interesting, like you said, I don't know what, I don't know what God's got in store, but, um, like I said, I'm getting a lot of opportunities to share lately and it's, it's been great.

He's making a podcaster out of you, sounds like.  Maybe, maybe, I don't know, we'll see. 2025, here we go. I mean, it's possible, you never know. Yeah. I mean, maybe I'll, maybe I'll become a podcaster so I can come to that gala. Yeah, yeah. I mean, if that I'm hosting Podcaster's Gala, spoiler alert for everyone. If, sorry about that.

No, no, no, you're totally fine. Uh, but I'm actually here, for those of you listening, not watching, I'm sitting in a Jordan River, at least, uh, a depiction of it. Yeah.  For those of you listening, I'm not actually sitting in a river. That would be cool if I was live streaming from the Jordan River.  But yeah, I just bring that up because we're talking about faith.

And so Justin, let's get into your story of faith. You know, were you always a religious or spiritual person or when did your journey with God start? So,  it's kind of complicated and messy. I went to church as a kid, um, with my grandparents primarily. My mom took me a few times. I, just a little bit of background, grew up with a single mom, so it was just me and her.

Uh, I've never actually known my dad, um, which actually, you know, some people would say definitely has a part to play in my, in my faith and struggles in my faith particularly. Um, but it was just me and my mom. She took me a few times, mostly with my grandparents. Um, I never got much out of it. Um, I thought I did, I think, at, at different times.

Of course, being a kid, you know, things are different. But, um, on reflection, I know I didn't get a whole lot out of it. Um, I went with friends in high school. Um, once again, didn't get a whole lot out of it. It was all very rote, very mechanical. What I tell people now is there was no depth in it. Um Just, I didn't, you know, I don't try, I'm not trying to fault any of the churches or the clergy or any of that.

Just, I didn't, I didn't have any depth. I didn't, you know, once again, I don't want to fault anybody, but I didn't see depth either. I don't feel like there was any, I didn't experience anybody else experiencing depth. It was all very rote. All very mechanical, and I, you know, I think people can fall into that very easily, um, so I don't want to, like I said, I don't want to down anybody that, that is in that space of just very rote, you know, mechanically going through motions or anything like that, because it's very easy to do.

And I mean, I can find myself there today if I'm not careful, but, but.  Not having ever had any depth, you know, I kind of got in this space where I decided I was an atheist. Um, I did some, you know, research and just basically,  decided that there was just nothing, nothing out there for me. There was nothing for anybody, you know, as far as that goes and just rejected it out of hand. 

And I lived my life that way for a while. Well, me and my wife got into a really hard spot. She was,  excuse me,  she grew up in church. She went with her family, you know, her mom and grandparents and, you know, all of that. So she had a, she had a pretty rich faith tradition. Um, she wasn't practicing. We weren't going to church.

Um, and our, you know, our, our origin story is pretty messy and complicated again. Um,  But when we got to this really rough patch in our marriage, like, you know, bring a divorce kind of area, um, she said to me, we're not going to get through this without God.  And in that moment, you know, my, my heart opened up and the light came on and I said, you're right  with tears in my eyes.

And I can still remember exactly where we were physically in the world.  Probably never forget it, hopefully. And she said, you know, she said, we're not, we're not going to get through this without God. And I said, you're right. And, um, I said, my heart opened up. I started reading the Bible.  We found a church to go to.

We actually on Mother's Day went to church that year that right after that with her mom. Um, so on Mother's Day, we attended where her mother was attending and we stuck there for a while.  Um, Like I said, just got in full force. Like I said, reading the Bible, read a book. I read a really a really good book that that changed a lot for me.

It was called I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. It's by Frank Turk and Norman Geisler. Um, very good book, very systematic, very intellectual approach to faith. Um, you know, evidence based and things like that.  And that, yeah, that book really helped a lot.  You know, it's funny, as you were sharing that, and you said that your wife said, Hey, we're not gonna get through this without God.

I was like, I just heard a guy say this the other day on LinkedIn. And I realized that was you on Steve Reich's show. Yeah, yeah. That came up in my LinkedIn feed. I was like, this guy's stealing another guy's story. I was like, oh wait, that was Justin. That's my story, yeah. I forgot you were a podcast guesting guru now.

You've been on multiple shows within a month. Yeah, I've got a tour. Yeah, yeah, world tour, because you were in the UK, now you're here in the Jordan River. But yeah, I think it's  interesting, when we were talking about the death of things,  how I'm translating that in my head, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm hearing what I often tell as,  we are told religion, not taught religion.

by certain churches or parents, so  you're told the stories or, you know, the tradition, but you don't get a lot of the why. You don't get a lot of the inner detail. Uh, it depends on the church, of course, but I, in my personal experience with churches, uh, of the Catholic tradition, which I'm no longer Catholic, and then with my parents, it didn't really cultivate that yearning, that relationship with God.

Right. It wasn't like, why are we praying? You know, why are we talking to God? You know, why do we do this? Or they would read,  you know, and in certain churches the pastor will then, or the priest will explain some kind of lesson from the reading, um, but not always. So that's why I really like pastors online.

I watch a lot of different ones. Joseph Prince and, uh, Skip from 30, 000 Feet, you know, and they'll break down the Bible. They'll go over it in Greek, in Hebrew. They'll go over all the lessons from it. That's, that's what I love and I think  it, you know, you realizing that the Bible is more than just a book, but as a kid, it was like the Bible was just a book, you know, and I think so.

Is that kind of how you were feeling when you speak of death or how exactly do you mean that? Yeah, I just I think part of it the part of it is  people would read and maybe pray but  I didn't see an adherence, you know, their, their faith wasn't in expression. It wasn't like the reading was in one ear and out the other effectively because they would go, you know, they would live a life that wasn't congruent with that, you know, and I,  I hate to call people that.

I mean, it's so, you know, it's, and I don't want to say that anybody does it intentionally because I know people that, that feel. Like they have faith. They feel like they have a depth and they don't. I mean, like, all right, at least you don't see it from the outside. They'll say one thing and then do another.

Um,  and so, like I said, I don't want to put that that label on folks, but I just what in my experience. It didn't line up. And when I went to, like I said, I went to that church on Mother's Day and I saw these pastors and I saw a congregation that when they read the Bible, it meant something in their life.

There was a life application. Like you say, lessons. It wasn't like some loose lesson that I want to tell you. And I'm using scripture to justify this lesson. It was, there's, there's a real lesson there and, and it's going to settle in my life and it's going to bear fruit in my life.  Yeah, I, see, the thing is, because I've had this conversation with others who, they did use the word hypocrite, they said, they left the church because they would see their mom, their dad, and people, you know, go to church, hallelujah, you know, this and that, and then they would go party, go drink, go commit  sin of all varying degrees.

Willfully. But,  but, the, the, the perspective I have now, which I always encourage, I encourage every person to have this, is unfortunately, as difficult as it is, you have to disassociate the people with God, you know? Right. Because when you judge the religion based on the people, you're judging You know, humanity, not God, you know, so  when you look at Jesus, did he leave the church and then go, you know, turn it up on a Saturday night, right?

So you gotta look at what Jesus did, you gotta look at what the people who we are called to be like and to follow are like within the Bible, you know? And,  even the prophets, many of them were bad people, were messed up, like, we get that. You know, and God is, is so amazing that he uses, you know, broken people and sinful people as his vessels.

I think it really demonstrates so much, I mean,  yeah, I'm just, I'm thinking of, of Jonah right now. I've got my book, God vs. the Indomitable Human Spirit, hopefully out already. If it is, check it out in the description below. But if it's not, it'll be coming out and it breaks down in one section in the book of Jonah. 

And, like, that's one of those things where, as a kid, I remember Jonah was just, oh, he got, you know, swallowed by a fish for three days, and this and that. As a grown man, I read the book of Jonah. I've read it maybe ten times. It's only four chapters. Short chapters. Yeah, it's easy read. Yeah. But there's so much in there.

The point isn't even about the fish. The point, ultimately, is about the ending. God, it leaves you with an unanswered question from God. What right do you have to be mad about my creation? And it's like a very humbling, frustrating question, and I absolutely love it. But you look at what he did with Nineveh, and you say, God is mercy.

But the ultimate mercy was that God called Jonah, and Jonah wanted to act out on his human selfishness. And stop God from being merciful. And then God was merciful to him. To him, to both, yeah. Because they, Jonah could have, he would have died in the ocean. You know, he would have died. And God saved him.

Even though, it's funny, Jonah admits it himself. He goes, God, I knew you would spare the city if they repented, and I want them all to die. And, I mean, it's one of the most, that, that, I break it down in my book about human emotion. You know, I talk about how we've seen people kill over video game scores, over road rage, over the most petty things.

You know, I started all the way back to, to, to Cain and Abel. We talk about why, why, why was there a murder? It wasn't survival. It was human emotion. It was jealousy. Yeah, you know, so my book breaks down That and jonah's a perfect example that he he wanted to kill, you know, it was like 45 000 people I don't know the number off the top of my head  And God said,  you were mad I killed this one plant that covered you with shade.

What about these thousands of people who are intersected in, in, in thousands of lives, animals, plants, their own. Um, but you look at, at, at children, we're not taught that. We're just taught, Jonah went in a fish, let's sing a song about it. And it's like, why was he in a fish? God save Jonah. You know? So that's, that's like one example I remember.

Yes, that's the depth. And, you know, again, there's a lot in the New Testament as well, um,  and I like the one thing that you said, when people judge  people, that's not God, right? It can be so easy. You think about all the pastors, all the, like, the big name pastors that have fallen in the last year.  Yeah. Well, and not even like, I mean, I, you know, I hate to,  I hate to throw shade at all and call names, but like Tony Evans, for example, and I don't know. 

Sorry, I'm getting over a cough.  Um, I don't know exactly what happened with him. He stepped down. He wasn't forced out. Um, he stepped down of his own volition and I don't know why exactly, but I think he was, he was good and I think he was doing good things and for whatever reason he had, he felt the need to step away and, and, um, Uh, it's really easy  for us to see somebody who's forced out or like Ravi Zacharias, for example, that was terrible, you know, um, It's really easy for us to see that as, like you said, almost a representation of God, but it's not.

That's just a man. That's just a man that fell short, right?  Yeah, and, uh, you know, I won't name names. But there's a pastor who had private jets, you know, at least one, maybe more, and a big mansion, and a lot of people have seen him on Instagram, and whatever, social media, and like you said, people could see that and say, oh, God only blesses, you know, people who, who do his will, and, and whatever, and I always use this analogy,  with,  I always pick Elon Musk in space, You know SpaceX because it's the first thing that comes to mind where whatever right?

Well, however, you feel about him if you met an employee from SpaceX and they were stupid, you know Would you say Oh Elon Musk must be stupid whether whatever you think about him politically the guy bills are right He's a smart guy, right? Yeah, you met, you know, Jeff Bezos and your Amazon delivery driver was a jerk Would you be like well that Bezos must be a jerk, right?

It's like God's great analogy. Yeah, I always use that that judging a company in in the founder by its employees Because I've all worked at some point most of us with employees that we didn't like it, but had a great boss Yeah, I would never say my boss was a bad boss because I hated my employees like right most of the time my boss and I hated the same employees, you know, yeah, that's how I try to look at it, you know, and like that's great The only person from, from the, the church, so to speak, that we should look at is Jesus Christ, you know?

Right. Well, and Paul said, Paul said, and you know, this goes back to your comment about the jet.  Paul said, imitate me as I imitate Christ, right? Amen. Amen. Do you see Paul living in opulence? Do you see Paul,  you know, being flashy? Do you see Paul,  like, telling people to give him money? No, you don't. You see Paul on the mission all the time trying to help others, giving to others.

Same with Jesus.  You know, he wasn't saying he never asked for anything from anybody. He always said to give, right? I mean, in fact, he's quote, you know There's red letters in in the book of Acts Acts 20 where he where Paul's quoting Jesus saying it's better to give than receive Right, so they didn't either one of them ask for anything They gave and they gave and they gave and I mean we know that the you know The end of Jesus's earthly life was giving Right.

He gave, he gave his life. He said, nobody takes it from me. I lay it down. I give it. And so, anything where you see someone saying, so, so a little seed in my ministry. I mean, we all have to have resources. You know, if you're going to do any effective, you know, ministry, you're going to have to have resources.

But if you're, Okay. In the will of God, if you're about the business, if you're on the mission, those resources will come. He will take care of you. They used to sell, they would sell two sparrows for 1 or five for 2. If I'm getting those numbers right. And what did God say? Those sparrows are worthless compared to you.

So I do believe it, you know, Jeremiah.  No, Elijah. The crows would bring him food. The ravens, yeah, yeah, that's right. I always check my windows, but um, I guess all the Wendy's biggie bags in my house scare off the birds, but That's right, yeah. Even after his death, I just heard a sermon the other day and the pastor was talking about  what was the first thing Jesus did.

It wasn't show up behind the Pharisee or punch his pilot and say, I am who I say I am, and you know, ultimate reveal. Like, it wasn't revenge. The first thing he did was he found two people who were Discussing in distress what had happened? Yeah, and he he hid himself from them. He right manipulated their eyes So they would not know it was he And the first thing Jesus did when he came back, he had rose that morning, he didn't go take a power nap, he didn't, he went and comforted two people and gave to them wisdom. 

As soon as he was back from the dead, that's what he did, was give. He died giving and he was born giving, living giving, so.  And then after Peter's gone fishing, Christ has died, Peter's gone fishing, you know, has a terrible night of fishing, he's dejected, he's just lost his friend, he's lost his way, he's gone back to the living that Jesus called him away from, right, in the fishing,  and then Jesus is on the shore baking, you know, cooking breakfast. 

You know what I'm saying? Like, give, give, give. Like, if, and that's the pattern. That's the example. And, you know, I'm not the best at it. I'll be honest. Um, I've been trying to lead with generosity over this last, you know, season, Christmas season, trying to, you know, be focused more on generosity. But, I mean, that's, that's the pattern that Jesus set forth.

Once again, Paul quotes Jesus in Acts 20 saying, it's better to give than receive. Yeah, yeah, I'm just thinking about  yeah and Peter especially, you know thinking about how I betrayed him, you know Yeah, well and furthermore not only does he get he gets got breakfast ready for Peter and whoever's with him  But he puts him back on the mission, you know, he said do you love me and Peter said, of course, I love you We'll get back after it,  you know hit three times.

He asked him. Do you love me? Do you love me? Do you love me feed my sheep feed my lambs?  Like, get back to work. Stop going back to what you, you know, to what you thought, to what you know, to what was comfortable. Get back after what I've told you to do.  Yeah, and um, I want to get back to your marriage and those rough patches there.

Because I was thinking, I've read the Bible end to end, and I reread through it. I kind of jump around, and I get a quote sent to me every morning and every night from two different apps.  Because he who doesn't know the word, you know, so it's important to know the word. And, uh, sometimes you just miss things, or, you know, they send you different translations.

And I saw a quote not too long ago. And I remember reading it, and it was one of those times where I just sat there for a minute. And I don't remember, you know, where exactly it came from, but it said,  He who doesn't know God doesn't know love, because God is love. And I was like, right. Divorces and relationships and that's not to say that God centered relationships don't struggle as well, but right it's good you know, there's more relationship issues than ever before and we see  Stats that are conflicting.

I've had guests on my show who said that more people believe than ever before, and I've had guests who say less believe than ever before. So it's interesting how you measure that, uh, because some people measure it, do you go to church? Some people measure it, do you have a relationship with God? Some people measure it, do you know God?

But we know that you need to do more than know him. You need to know more than just his name and what's in the Bible. The devil knows, the devil knows, and you know, the devil knows God.  Yeah, that was a perfect example right there. The devil just talked to God. Right, but doesn't follow, doesn't walk in it, right? 

And um, well, I was gonna say my one friend, he is terrified of the quote. He never wants to hear the words, you know, away from me you evildoers. I never knew you, for you did all these things in my name, but I never knew you. He's terrified to get up there and have those words spoken to him. Yeah, I am too.

You know, I try my best, you know, you never want to hear that. Right.  Even going back to, you know, when you had brought up Paul, I was thinking of, you know, don't pray on the street corner for everyone to see. Don't make your clothes dirty. They said, if you're fasting, act even more full. If you're, if you're, you know, living in Shambles.

Get cleaned up. So people don't know. Oh, are you living? You know humbly? Are you oh, are you fasting? Oh, are you praying? You know, they said everything you do, you know, do it for Christ and in you know in Secret almost so right but going back to yeah, God God is love so how did the faith save your marriage, you know, you talked about So, your wife said, we need God, God is love, and so, you know, you had to make a choice.

Either I let this marriage go, or I do some biblical exploration. So how did you integrate that into your marriage for success? That's a great question. Um, I would say, you know, with a commitment to Christ, that's a commitment to love. That's a commitment to selflessness. That's a commitment to service. You know, service to yourself, and so I would say that's it.

That, you know, commitment to Christ is going to flow out into other, uh, relationships, particularly, right? Your spouse relationship, because that's the closest to you. So I'm committed, committed to selflessness, committed to service, committed to, you know, giving again, um,  and,  and, and committed to,  um,  vow, a vow, right?

I mean, when you make, when you make that vow, and I don't know how, I don't know how people can do it nowadays. Like I said, we were on the brink of divorce, so we were ready to do it, or not quite ready, but we were getting close. But when you make that vow, when you get married, my daughter just got married last month, you know, and they say, we're here before God and these witnesses.

Do you promise to, in sickness and in health, in, you know, for richer or poorer, for all of these things, do you promise to love and cherish and honor this person?  How do you say I do?  You know, for forever. I mean, I don't know if they say forever, but you know, yeah, as long as you both shall live.  How do you say I do and then say I don't? 

Especially, especially if,  once again, you're, you have a commitment to Christ, a commitment to love, a commitment to serve. A commitment to love is, is a commitment to put myself lower than everybody else. I mean, in Romans it says, prefer your brother above yourself.  You know, be kindly affectionate one to another preferring others above yourself in Philippians.

It says, you know, I can't remember the exact verbiage, but it says something very similar, you know, don't think of yourself more highly than you are like think of others serve others get give once again to others and if If, if I've committed to doing that in a Christian context, and I'm doing that for my spouse, you know, they can leave if they want, but if,  but if I'm loving and I'm giving and I'm serving, they're probably not going anywhere.

And if they're, if they're committed to doing the same, there, there's nothing. There's nothing that can break it. Right. Whatever you do for the least of these brothers and sisters, truly, I tell you, you have done so for me. Yes, that's right. For others as you would serve me. So when you talk about being committed to Christ and committed to your wife as if she were Christ, you know, and I completely agree.

And how did being a father, you talk about your daughters getting married or, you know, you're marrying off your daughter. How has that affected your faith or vice versa? How has faith affected your fatherhood?  Um, that's a good question as well.  I probably haven't spent enough time thinking about that particular facet.

I've thought a lot about the things that I've done wrong, like as I, you know, as I've come to faith. And I've recognized my shortcomings before that. I've spent a lot of time dwelling on that.  Um, and hopefully it's informed some new behaviors. I can't swear that it has, but, um, I've definitely thought a lot about, you know, what I've done wrong. 

Um, and what I tell people, especially people with younger kids, um, you know, in my faith community  is you've got to ensure  that they, they know that you love them. Not just like I'm headed out the door. Love you. Love you. Bye. You know, not that I'm talking about. Like  they know that you love them and that builds a trust. 

With them that when you tell them no, or you tell them don't do this or do do this They know that it's for their good. I mean it has so many biblical parallels You know we as Christians should develop that same love and trust that I'm talking about We should have a love for the Father and a trust in the good You know Romans 8 28 all things work together for the good for good for those that are called according to the Lord's or you know I love the Lord  according to his purpose I'm missing verbiage there But you know what I'm saying all things work out together for our good if we believe that and we trust that when we hear No, we hear don't go there.

Don't don't kill people. Don't you know, don't lie. Don't steal Don't cheat don't you know the Ten Commandments? Whatever when we hear any of that if we Trust and love the source of that, then we're not going to get our panties in a wad when, when he says, don't do that. Right? Same with my kids. If I, if I develop that love and trust with them, which I completely failed to do. 

Um, I wouldn't say completely. I mean, we, we have a fine relationship. Like I said, I was with my daughter. I'm with me and my middle are getting really, really good. Um, but then, you know, there was some failures anyway. Um, but if, if we develop that love and trust with our kids, then when we, when we do have to correct them or set them straight, then it's, they're going to know that it comes from a place of love and they're going to trust that correction. 

Yeah. You know, God said that, or, or so I should say that I've heard a bunch of great sermons on,  you know, God and his timing. And one of those things being, God knows what you can and can't handle. Yeah. That, if he had given, a great example I heard was,  if he had given you that amount of money when you were in your 20s.

Right. He knows you would have been stupid with it. Yeah. He waited until you were 40, so you would maximize it, because God knows our potential and when we can perform best. You know, same with Right. Even, even relationships. God, why didn't, you know, why did that relationship end? Why did that You know, and again, going back to my book, which references the book, the Bible, I break down Job and, and, you know, God versus human intelligence.

And, uh,  it's, it's, uh, there's a clear winner, you know, and, um, yeah, trying to wrap your mind around God's mind will, uh, you know, drive you insane. Many men have tried to do it, but point being that  when God speaks to Job about the intricacies of the universe, Yeah, where were you? Yeah, I mean the edges of the darkness to the Leviathan  being made a pet.

Oh, yeah.  He's talking about sometimes simple stuff. He just talks about mountain goat droppings for example in some translations, you know about about this and that  And then you look at humans probably one of the most complex things biologically Yeah, especially um Psychologically if I can use that correctly.

Yeah, because  Animals are you know, and I love them. I respect them. I'm not saying that they're dumb but they're relatively simple minded in terms of complexity just  In their  thinking. I mean, you know, and I've never read an animal's mind, so I don't want to insult them because, you know, maybe they think higher thoughts than I, maybe they know more than I, um, I doubt that too.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But point being like, imagine. God is, I mean, Job is overwhelmed by just all these animals and their minds. Imagine humans whose lives intersect.  I mean, Justin and I have already talked to like 10 different people today. You know, all in, in different states, in different countries, with different lives, about different things.

I mean, we were talking this morning, you and I, Justin, in our group about  online dating and connection and how people now have the world. at their hands from  some parents, not knocking on parents, uh, give their two year olds tablets iPhones, which I don't agree with at all, but  whether you do it or their friends do it, you know, our youth has access to the world so soon.

And talk about adding whole nother levels of intricacy and complexity. So,  you know, to, to have all that and to know that, you know, God's timing is good and just, and that sometimes we, our lives would be completely broken if we got what we wanted. Yeah. I totally lost what I was tying that to. 100%. No, you're good.

Whoa. You were talking about parenting. Yeah, so trusting that God knows what's best for us, and that comes from,  one, we know his wisdom is great, but two, like you said, that love,  whereas I agree with you, if you are a parent who instills fear, uh, instead of discipline, if you're a parent who has a bad relationship with your child, They're not going to see that love.

They're not going to trust that love. What they're going to get is rebellious authority issues. You know, Justin, you seem like you, you are familiar to some degree with the authority issues. I've been on both sides of that. Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And so can you talk a little bit about, big question inbound, you know, if you're a parent who has struggled with your children.

And you've been through that phase of rebelliousness, of instead of trusting you, they just think you're after them, they're defensive, or they don't believe you, how do you cultivate into a relationship of love and turn that around? Is that you just, your kids just need to learn for themselves that you were right or is there something you can do as a parent to try to bring that relationship over?

That's a great question and I don't know if I'm qualified to answer it, but I will say, you know, that's one of the things, like you said, let them grow. Let them, let them grow up. That is an option. Um, and my kids are all grown now. I mean, grown like 18. My youngest, my daughter that just got married is 18.

So that's grown. Um,  but  let them grow. Is, is one thing and I struggle with that. I struggle, you know, talking about the, the authoritarian and the, the discipline, discipline versus authoritarianism, right? Yeah. They're not the same thing. You might, you might learn some discipline out of authoritarianism, but they're not the same thing. 

And having come from that, my mom was very authoritarian. It's going to be my way. It's going to be, you know, it's very authoritarian.  Um. And so, like I said, I've been on both sides of that,  um, but what my wife tell, and so, in, in that, I want to control. She controlled me to a very fine degree, I want to control.

And so, when my daughter, you know, wants to get married, and, you know, whatever, all the, there were, I had a lot of feelings around that, I'll be honest. Um, I walked her down the aisle, and it was a beautiful ceremony, and it was great. You did charge an eye of Jack, too, you know. I, I, I,  man, when we did, I'll just tell you, when we did rehearsal dinner the night before, we had a little rehearsal ceremony.

And, uh, the preacher asked, uh, who gives this woman to be married? I said, our mom, like, I'm not, not, not her mother. And I, it's just, it's just her mom. No.  Um,  but anyway, I came from that very authority. And so I wanted to control, you know, I wanted to control my daughter. I want to control my middle son who is very out of control.

I mean, he's going to do what he's going to do. And that's, you know, right. Middle children. I don't know if you know this middle children dynamic, but he's very much middle, middle child. And so wanting to control them is where it came from. I wanted to control them because I did love them. Right? And so the methods were really flawed as that when they were younger, really flawed.

It was out of love. But it was out of a harshness. You know, I was very harsh, very control. I wanted to control them. Um, and so one of the things, like you said, let them grow. That's what my wife's been preaching to me for the last year or so. You know, they're going to look and she always tells me, look at where we were when we got together.

Our, our, our coming together was not normal. I mean, I don't want to give away any of her story, but I'll just say it was very chaotic, very, um, Um, we got, you know, pregnant before we got married and not, you know, that's about all I'm going to say about it, but it was just very chaotic.  Um, but she said, look at where we were, look at where we've come, you know, just relax, let them grow.

They're going to figure life out. Um, So that, that's one. I mean, that you asked, you know, is it this or is it that? Well, it's an or I think, or it's both. Um,  that and that's one path. And that's, that's going to work out. If you again believe that God has got everything under control, you know, and everything's going to work out for their good because that's his plan.

Then, you know, you can  try. To relax into that. Um, but I think the other thing, like I said, is, is yes, develop that trust, develop, and it gets easier as that gets easier as they get older. If you didn't establish it early, you know, 13 to 18 is going to be a challenge. 13 to, you know, 20 plus may be a challenge.

I don't know. Like I said, I've got 18, 19 and 23.  So, um, You know, 18 and 19. That's might still be a challenge, but as they get older and I see this with both of them, they're more willing to listen, especially as I lean into. I'm telling you this because I love you. I'm not trying to hold you back. I'm not trying to hold you down.

I love you. I want the best for you. Reinforce that. It's repetition. Just like we learn anything else. It's repetition. Repetition. I love you. You know, you can see that I love you because I do X, Y and Z  because of that. And I want the best for you. Okay. You should or should not do this. Um, and only, and my wife has really tried to, you know, pull me back.

Only give that when they ask. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and they get better at that too.  Well, and I think Well, that goes into communication as well, if your children feel comfortable seeking you for advice and for, you know, adult conversations, that's a whole parenting discussion on its own, but what I want to say is you talk about sometimes children need to learn from their mistakes, um, just themselves, and it can be difficult for a lot of parents, especially softer parents and mothers, especially  who want to baby their children, want to always take care of them.

And kind of helicopter mom them sometimes, as we say the term. There's helicopter dads, too. Don't get me wrong.  If  people think that God is evil because they say, Why does God allow evil in the world? And I had a whole video about that. But I'll tie into this discussion.  If there were no consequences for our sins, we would keep sinning.

You know, and biblically. There's historical evidence of what happens when you sin, but if you're someone who hasn't read the Bible or you lose sight of that  Then it has to be your own sins or sometimes other people's sins can affect you. I mean, that's how it works We are all interconnected.  But does that make God happy?

No What does God say in Ezekiel and I love this because people think God is evil sometimes and and he's not this is what he says  I'm paraphrasing here. He says,  Do you think I'd take delight in the perishment of the wicked? Or would I much rather see them convert to what is good and just, and know love, and enter my kingdom? 

What parent wants their kid to fail? Right. You don't want to see them fail. And, as a parent, you don't even want to see The consequences of their sin, if you could take that for them, or take that away from them. So in the same way that we as parents sometimes have to let our kids make their mistakes, whether they listen to us or not, then, God does the same thing.

There are plenty of sins in my life that have, you know, I said, God,  you didn't even punish me because my sin punishes itself in me. You know, um, so it it really  can be that way Um part of that too  Is you have to recognize? It has consequence and sin some people who are wicked and delight in sin  who don't understand that it's wrong We'll just shrug off the consequences or not care.

No, they won't associate it I think it's important that you realize what is punishment? What is consequences? You know, what are consequences and then what is discipline but just like we said  parents and kids We much rather that you know, you know good and love than to pair, right? Yeah, and that goes back to, again, Jonah didn't want them to repent and be saved.

He wanted to kill all of them. Right. So it goes into  humanity and the What do humans struggle with the most that God did not struggle with? Forgiveness and mercy. Right. Like I go over that in my book because I talk about how  God has wrath. Yeah, I'm an Old Testament enthusiast. I know. I can see that. Yeah, I am an Old Testament guy.

Yeah, I don't. I go to the new and you're like every time you're like you're going to the old, I'm like, okay. I always reference the Old Testament. Yeah. Yeah.  Trust me. God had some, some, you touch the ark when you're not supposed to, boom. You burn incense in the, in the altar room when you're not supposed to, leprosy. 

Um, and again, there, there, There are reasons for that and I've had conversations with God. How could you kill him? He was just trying to fix the heart. Even  Cain and Abel. I've always been like, why was that not acceptable? All right. Yeah, and um, big questions that we're not gonna get into, you know, Justin and I are not qualified to answer.

Right. Why vegetables were not acceptable. Maybe God's not vegan, but you know, what's interesting is that  Yeah, God gets, gets, gets mad too, but you see so much mercy and forgiveness, and  the story in, in, I believe is Ezekiel 22 is the one I did the episode on, the most heartbreaking chapter in the Bible, and he tells the whole story of, of, of his mercies and love for the land and the people and how they betrayed him over and over again, he likens them to a woman that he found  broken and alone and nothing, he buys her jewelry and clothes and perfume and he lifts her up and then she goes and Part of my French whores are around.

She makes idols. She betrays him. And, um, Read, I mean that was heart wrenching to me to read because it was an analogy for us. Yeah. And I see people nowadays still doing the same thing and we see it sometimes as parents, as Mentors, as friends, when we have,  you know, there's a the famous saying  What is it?

You know, they return my kindness with whatever. No good deed goes unpunished, you know. Yeah, but that being said,  God displays such mercy and forgiveness that humans just  don't don't have and I think it's because of the found the lack of foundation of biblical knowledge and emotion. And like I said,  we've seen people kill each other over video game scores over.

Yeah, you know, not using your blinker sometimes over you know,  Parking I keep going back to cars. That's what gets me mad. You can see I don't like driving or parking I'm trying to think of other stuff that doesn't you know that gets other people mad, but sometimes it's the most simple things Yeah, I've  it could just be I don't like that guy's face.

I don't like that guy He knows I wish someone would blow his head out with a shotgun. Like I've heard people make comments like that Yeah, you know it's like I think people who wear those kinds of shoes should be killed and they mean it sometimes sometimes these people Like mean it and we've seen um  You know, you see in the news sometimes when there's a murder, but you don't see everyone.

You know how many murders there are every day?  I knew a guy who worked in a prison, and he would talk about why these people  did what they did, and their reasons are just sometimes sick, sometimes just delusional, and sometimes just  You you got that mad over that I mean think about you know, domestic violence.

Sometimes it's over You left the kitchen sink running. Uh, there's a lot of factors that can tie into that but even that breaking point Yeah, you look at what we do to each other and God's watching all of this. Yeah thinking the same thing like  it's amazing But Justin I'll let you bounce some ideas off of that.

Oh, well, one of the things I was gonna say I mean you kind of started a direction I don't know maybe you were going somewhere else and I don't know but I I actually at my church this past Sunday got to preach  A small message for, for the Christmas program, um, but I talked about the gift of salvation,  uh, you know, in the context of Christmas, it's a gift, you know, that mercy, that forgiveness that you're talking about, it's a gift,  and if, but if you don't receive it, it doesn't do you any good.

It's not only, it's right, but it not only does it not do you any good, it doesn't do, you know, if you think about, I want to give you a gift.  But if you don't take it, it doesn't do either one of us any good. If you don't take the gift of salvation, you know, God's gonna It's there. It's available. It's for you.

I can't use the gift. I'm the one giving it to you. Like, yeah, like God doesn't need salvation. Right. Right, that's what I'm saying. So like people that, like you said, that just,  they, they don't want to think about it. I mean, and I, you know, in that book that I've mentioned earlier, um, one of the biggest things that they said that, one of the biggest hurdles for people to coming to faith is not believing, which I find shocking, because that was what, you know, maybe it's two pronged, but that was a big hurdle for me, is like just believing. 

But the biggest hurdle they say is a question of will, because once again, you're gonna be You're going to be constrained. You're going to be confined. You're going to be told, don't do that. Don't. And so people will talk themselves out of belief that, oh, that's not real because I don't want to experience that constraint, or I don't want to have to follow a bunch of rules.

I'm just going to pretend like it doesn't exist.  And so, people deny themselves freedom, and joy, and peace, and salvation, ultimately, eternal life, because they, Oh, I don't want to be told what to do. I don't want to be told I can't kill, you know, or whatever, whatever it is. Right. And so they just reject it.

Yeah, I don't want to be told I can't sleep with whoever I want to sleep with. So, I'm just gonna reject. I don't want to be told that I can't, you know, get drunk on Friday and Saturday. But guess what, Justin? Everything you're naming Alright, cause I'm doing another episode. I did an episode back in the day on a different podcast.

I'm redoing it, Pascal's Wager, about, you know, the gamble. And if you look at Let's say there is  Because humans only know so much, there is a percentage chance that there is an afterlife, even if you're not a believer, right? There's a chance there is, and there's a chance that it's forever. Yeah. So, are you willing to risk  that, which is infinite gain, for, quote,  getting drunk, having sex, you know, whatever it is.

Are those things worth the risk of eternal, you know,  Life in hell or whatever it may be, you know,  if you're non believer, there's actually  all those different possible afterlives, whether it's Buddhist karma or, you know, Anubis with Egyptian religion. I don't really know about those religions, but  if you're a non believer. 

Is getting extra turnt up on a Saturday weekend, is, you know, sleeping with a man's wife worth the risk, which we can't really even calculate, it's a 50 50 really, almost, is it worth a 50 percent chance of you get away with it, or is it worth 50 percent chance of eternal, you know, condemnation. Well, and not to mention That's just numbers.

That's just a little I have a whole episode coming out in great detail. I have a whole list of formulas and stuff for all you science and math people. But that's the most basic way I can phrase it. And it's like, is it worth it? Is the Bible asking you to give up anything that is so much needed in life?

And the answer is no. I can tell you the answer. Justin can tell you the answer. It's not. And  not to mention, you know, you're talking about the eternal consequences, not to mention the earthly consequences. Why do all of the, the rules and the constraints exist for your benefit?  Don't, you know, don't sleep with another man's wife.

Yeah. I mean, almost, yeah. Don't sleep with another man's wife, like you said. Like, that's not good for you.  I've been there. I've done it. People do get excessively drunk.  Or get into drama or get injured. Fight. Yes. Yes. Vomit. I mean, right? Not good. Not pleasant things, right? Yeah. Um, like I said, if you just take the, take the wife, another, you sleep with another man's wife.

It's not good for you.  You know, you're gonna feel some amount of, of, even if you, which I don't know if you can, I've read, I've read another good book about, um, how Christianity has influenced Western society, and we can't even, like, we can't even fathom, like, a concept of the world that doesn't take Biblical Christianity at its foundation, um, and people will argue that, but, you know, the book makes a really good case.

Are you trying to say, is it possible to feel zero remorse for committing something that society, regardless of religion, feels like is wrong? Right, that's what I'm getting at. Yeah. Yeah. That was a fascinating book as well. Like I said, they make the case that Christianity is just so foundational to Western society that we can't even like talk without references to Christian attitudes.

Yeah, just the laws are based, a lot of them are tied back to that foundation. Yes, a hundred percent. Yeah, and people don't even, like I said, people will argue against that. They're like, no, that's not real. Like, it's a hundred percent real,  but so You sleep with another man's wife, you're going to feel guilt, whether that's, you know, Christian guilt, whatever.

But you're going to feel some amount of guilt, and if you don't, then you might really have a serious mental health problem.  She's going to feel all kinds of guilt, you know. He's, if the other guy finds out, like, it's going to be more than guilt. It's going to be rage and murder once you get, like, you know, I mean, it's not going to be good.

It's not good for anybody. You know, if you sleep with someone that's not somebody else's wife, you know, you run the risk of disease, you run the risk of, like, pregnancy, and, you know, don't have kids out of woodlock, right? Like, once again It says don't sleep with your daughter or your husband's, uh, or your father's wife.

I mean Right. Those are also great examples. Right. Bad things happen to good people when they do those things, right? Yeah. I mean, like I said, the rules I heard a preacher one time say, there's so much freedom in following those rules. Rules that people are just so opposed to  and it's like ironic, but it's it's true.

It's true Yeah,  all that being said Justin, I think we've had a great conversation I'd love for you to end us off with a Bible quote if you could pick one Bible quote I know there are so many great ones. I have a slew of Old Testament Bible quotes Occasionally the New Testament, but do you have one that has been like your go to throughout your faith journey?

Or that is just speaking to you right now  Um, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna pull it up so I can read it accurately.  It's in Philippians 4. 

Finally brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence, and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.  Hmm,  I think that ties in perfectly to what we just discussed. Yeah,  yeah, well Justin I want everyone to think about that a little bit if you've read it before maybe reread it You know, there's a like I said in the very beginning an episode every time I read the Bible I get something different from it Yeah,  not Conflictions, but just more wisdom as I get older and as I study more of the history of the Bible And the bible itself and seeing it in the present day.

It's just so Mind blowing god said the word is alive and that yeah the truth. It was a book made for all of time Yeah, I think that's amazing So justin, thank you for coming on and sharing some of it with us in a different way than we've heard before I appreciate your time. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it